Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

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Umberto Gorena
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Umberto Gorena » 23 Dec 2011 23:41

Hi guys
Upon all, as, maybe, I have wrote in a my previous post, I d'nt understand because, often, what could be only a usefull exchange of informations about a topic, must become a war! Easy man.
Well, unfortunately i have read this topic only now, in my current research for a completely different task I have encountered
some aircraft embedded to SS Division and then I have found the followings Fi 156C-3 (KH+OT/OU/YE/YN or VN) of SS Unit
Fl. GzB. V7.( I have not ended so maybe, I will find other aircrafts)
Is not strange, knowing the megalomany of Reichsfuhrer, if the SS attempted to have own aviation.

Bregds Umberto

P.S. very much thanks to Tuntematon Sotilas

Motch
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Motch » 30 Dec 2011 20:10

TS..
Thanks for the reply and for the pic! Finally we are getting somewhere~
The pic on the right shows what looks like the Brandenburg Tor in the background. And the wreckage does look like a Ju 52... from the floor of the cargo compartment and the wing.

When I said "roughly" I meant it depends on which model of Ju 52 was used. As far as the width of the Ave, I used Google Earth but next time I am in Berlin, I will try and pace it out. I get there every so often because the airline I fly for, has service into Berlin.

When I said "270 degree turn", I meant that after landing, a pilot would not just do a 180 on a narrow runway. He would have to head over to the edge (assuming he landed on centerline) and then cut back the opposite way. Not a pure 180.
If I'm reading you correctly, he would have landed on one end of the Ave, taxied around the SS, and then lined up for takeoff?

As a pilot, I'm not saying that landing and taking off from the Ave is impossible in a Ju 52. But I will say that landing a JU52 on the Ave on a clear day, daytime, no outside distraction, with a normal downwind, base and final is not impossible for a highly experienced pilot.
But given- dusk/nighttime, no real pattern, smoke/haze, antiaircraft fire, on an Ave with possible shell holes and other debris.. I just find it hard to imagine.

Your article mentions that 2 Ju 52's landed on the Ave as late as Apr 23/24.. does that mean the night of 23/24 or earlier? Then it goes on to say that 2 Ju 52's crashed on Takeoff sometime around the 26th of Apr.
This article (if true) would have us believe that 4 Ju 52's successfully landed on the East West Axis, and two successfully took off again.

So here are my questions-
Why do we not have more pics of the 2 wrecks of the Ju 52's? You would think that would have gotten alot of interest. We have numerous pics of the FW 190 and the Fi 56 that were in the area.
Who were the pilots/crews of these 4 Ju 52's?
What unit were these aircraft/aircrew assigned to?

Sorry but I still find it hard to believe that Ju 52's landed and took off from the East West Ave during the end of Apr 45.

But great discussion!
Happy New Year~
Motch

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Larry D. » 31 Dec 2011 02:45

Sorry but I still find it hard to believe that JU52's landed and took off from the East West Ave during the end of Apr 45.


In present-day Germany, there are just 4 or 5 individuals who qualify as so-called experts in the very narrow field of WWII Luftwaffe transport aircraft and operations: Georg Schlaug, Karl Kössler, Günther Ott and a couple of others. They have been researching and writing books and articles on the subject for 25 years or more. Each of them had/has huge collections of documents, document copies, Flugbücher, photos, correspondence, etc., and have traveled around Germany and elsewhere countless times interviewing former Ju 52 crew members, their survivors and others. None of these gentlemen - one a now retired secondary school history teacher and at least two of the others professional engineers - has ever found one shread of evidence to substantiate the landing of Ju 52s on the East-West at the end of April 1945. The story is one of those many made-up myths from the closing days of the war that just will not go away. Like A.H. escaping the bunker, it just hangs on like a bad odor and will not disappear.

Motch
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Motch » 31 Dec 2011 03:55

Thanks for the post, LD...

Kinda makes my point about where is the official proof. I would love to hear what those individuals think about the picture that TS posted, and what they thought of the article/book that he pulled it from.

Me, I think that the wreckage in the pic may be a Ju 52 (though, it could be another smaller JU type too..), and that it ended up there due to being shot down by AA fire. Maybe he was doing an airdrop, maybe he was trying to see if a landing was possible, or maybe he did land but was damaged and never got back off the ground.

My gut tells me we will probably never really know what happened with that wreckage. Or the whole Ju 52 story. But like I said earlier.. makes for good discussion~

Always
Motch

Andrew Arthy
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Andrew Arthy » 07 Jun 2012 07:16

Hi,

I'm surprised that no-one has consulted the diary of General der Flieger Karl Koller, who was meant to fly in to Berlin in late-April. I came across the following entry for 27 April, at which time Koller was at Rechlin with the intention of flying to Berlin to see Hitler:

27 April 1945
6 Fieseler Stoerche's with 30 escort fighters had been assembled in Rechlin. The Stoerche were supposed to fly under fighter cover to the Axis in Berlin sometime in the evening. Twelve Ju 52s were in readiness for the night. They were also supposed to bring SS men back to Berlin. The Stoerche mission failed, the formation was scattered in a strong shower. The single Stoerche that managed to break through was unable to find the Axis in the smoke-haze and in the rain, some met heavy anti-aircraft fire, were damaged, others had to make emergency landings, two were missing at first. None of the Stoerche landed on the Axis.

...

The first Ju 52 returns from night operations to Berlin without success, the crew searched for the approach to the Axis for an hour without finding it. The second plane returned badly damaged, the third was missing, the fourth returned and reported that the D/F station on the Axis had refused to accept any more aircraft. This led to the assumption that the third plane had probably crashed on the Axis and Greim confirmed this assumption later. There would probably be no more operations to Berlin that night."

Source
A.D.I.(K) Report No. 348/1945


Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com

Panzermahn
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Panzermahn » 09 Nov 2012 14:37

Hello all

I recall there is an article in English on the subject of Kriegsmarine Naval infantry during the Battle of Berlin (apologies as I had no links to it and writting from memory).

During the battle of Berlin where Hitler finally had decided to stay and commit suicide (after giving permission to Weidling to commence breakout), it seems Großadmiral Dönitz pledged to the Führer a number of Kriegsmarine Naval infantry (probably only company size made it to their destination) to support the Battle of Berlin. They were sent to by 4 or 5 Ju 52s (all crash-landed and unable to take off). Also there is a mention of Hitler Youth volunteers piloting gliders into Berlin in late April 1945

With regards to the mention of helicopters, the only one I heard them being used for evacuation is Karl Hanke used one to escape from Festung Breslau (in a Focke-Angelis autogyro?) but perhaps someone would have more information on this.

Panzermahn

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Larry D. » 09 Nov 2012 19:07

There is disagreement:

On 6 May, German General Hermann Niehoff surrendered Breslau. Hanke had flown out on 5 May in a small plane kept in reserve for him, a Fieseler Storch. In his memoirs, German Minister of Armaments, Albert Speer, claimed that he heard from Anton Flettner, the designer, that Hanke actually escaped in one of the few existing prototype helicopters.


(Wikipedia entry).

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wartourist
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby wartourist » 24 Jul 2013 17:21

This input relates ONLY to the question whether any larger aircraft ever successfully landed on the Charlottenburger Chaussee in late April 1945. I.e. no fuss about a Hitler-escape, Dönitz marines etc. :lol:

I have read the Koller memoir and it states that an attempt was done with 12 Ju 52 on April 27th, but did not succeed for various reasons (p 103ff). But the idea was tried and hence one should think that it would be at all possible (under better circumstances)?

Further, Gerhardt Boldt in his memoir mention that an urgent request for armor-piercing ammo was rewarded with the successful landing of two Ju 52 at 10:30 a.m. on April 26th. Upon takeoff, laden with wounded men, one Ju 52 crashes, the other takes off without trouble.

This is corroborated by Olaf Grohler (Die Neue Reichskanzlei, p 50) - with almost the same wording as Boldt, or vice versa, which perhaps is a little suspect? :wink:

Finally, in Hans Baur's memoir (recently published in English) he states, that he was in charge of cutting down trees along the stretch from BBT to Siegessäule, to provide landing facilities for larger aircraft (p 179)

I don't intend to stir up the discussion again, and I am prepared to accept than no Ju 52 - or other larger aircraft ever made a successful take-off from this makeshift runway. I would just like to hear a couple of informed opinions on the three statements (two from people who were actually there).

Dan

little grey rabbit
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby little grey rabbit » 06 Aug 2013 13:43

There is this guy
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthrea ... AUMGARTNER, Peter.
23.09.41 Lt., awarded the Ehrenpokal.
01.07.42 Lt., 7./KG 55 awarded the DKG.
13.02.44 Oblt., appt Staka 1./KG 55 (to 08.05.45).

A search of the Kracker Archive reveals only that:

Baumgartner, Peter. - Lt. - 7./KG-55 He 111H, DK-G(7/1/42), EK 1 & 2, Bomber Operational Clasp, DK-G Awards List

Andrew Arthy
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Andrew Arthy » 03 Nov 2013 03:14

Hi,

Just came across this relevant ULTRA reference, typed exactly as it appears in the original:

"From Major KLUSSMANN, Luftgau XI to A.R.C. LUEBECK and A.R.C. SCHLESWIG, dated 30/4:-
On order of Gen. Feldmarschall von GREIM all Fieseler Storch and Ar. 66 are to be ferried to G.A.F. Station SCHWERIN. Report there to IA, 4. Fliegerdiv. for employment to BERLIN. Report (special priority telephone call) to Battle H.Q. of Luftgau XI, tel. No. 3053:
1) Which a/c are being ferried from which stations.
2) Where, and for which a/c, pilots are lacking (pilots of units are to be employed)."

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com

Simon Gunson
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Simon Gunson » 12 Feb 2014 03:08

Believed operated into Berlin were the following Ju 352 aircraft:

from TG.4:

G6+XY ...(formerly L5+ER) CN:B-05 believed lost, pilot unknown
G6+UY ...CN:B-09, Pilot Ofw.Hans George Boldt
G6 + WY...Pilot Ofw. Helmut Vierus, with Fw. Gerhard Tiedt as an observer and Navigator, plus Sgt Gerhard
G6 + RX...StFw Kurt Becker, Navigator Reichardt
G6 + YY...CN:B-07, Ofw. Max Limbrecht (also earlier during same operations flew Arado 232 A3 + SB into Berlin)
G6 + EX...OFw Paul Kohler (later force landed Denmark fleeing from Soviets in May 1945)
G6+NX ...Pilot Arthur Kürth

plus from F.d.F:

KT+VJ...Olt. Schultze

and:

Fw 200 CE+IC...RLM Flug Kapt Joachim Hübner
Ju 290 9V + BK...Lt Wagner (a/c later found abandoned in forest near Salzburg)

FranzJ
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby FranzJ » 30 Jul 2016 16:44

TuntematonSotilas wrote:I cannot say what really had happened. I wasn't born yet, so I'm not a witness. But I can verify the plausibility of statements, testimonies, of people who were present on site in 1945. I cannot say whether something has happened indeed. I can only say whether it is plausible or not. And most of the time, I'm finding a grain of truth in an ocean of German lies, and that's my starting-point. For instance, the accounts of Hanna Reitsch are overloaded with lies. Almost nothing of the publicly known about her last flight from Berlin is true. A Masterpiece of verbal manipulation. But, embedded in her lies, there is plenty of precious information which only must be translated in relation to the reality on-site. But the naivity of the American Investigators in 1945 makes me shiver, how stupid these men were, getting fooled by a woman, typically male. Nevertheless, we will never find the final proof. Sometimes, it is just one tiny information that is missing, but which is esential for the understanding of the whole event. We will never know for sure.


Throughout the remainder of her life, Hanna Reitsch remained a controversial figure, tainted by her ties -- both real and suppositious -- to the dead Führer and his henchmen. The circumstances surrounding her 1945 sojourn in Hitler's Berlin Bunker especially haunted her.

In a postscript to a new edition of her memoirs, published shortly before her death from a heart attack in 1979, she wrote that "so-called eyewitness reports ignore the fact that I had been picked for this mission because I was a pilot and trusted friend [of Greim's], and instead call me `Hitler's girl-friend'....I can only assume that the inventor of these accounts did not realize what the consequences would be for my life. Ever since then I have been accused of many things in connection with the Third Reich."

Hanna Reitsch was interviewed and photographed several times in the early 1970's in Germany by US investigative photo journalist Ron Laytner. At the end of her last interview, authorised for publication only after her death, Reitsch stated explicitly that at least part of the account attributed to her in "The Last Days of Hitler" had been fabricated:

"When I was released by the Americans I read historian Trevor-Roper's book, "The Last Days of Hitler". Throughout the book like a red line, runs an eyewitness report by Hanna Reitsch about the final days in the Bunker. I never said it. I never wrote it. I never signed it. It was something they invented. Hitler died with total dignity".

-- Ron Laytner, "The First Astronaut Was A Woman", Edit International

This report, dated 8 October 1945, was written by Reitsch's interrogator, Captain Robert E. Work (Air Division, Headquarters, United States Forces in Austria, Air Interrogation Unit), and published for the first time in, of all places, "Public Opinion Quarterly" in 1946–47.

-- Robert E. Work, "Last Days in Hitler's Air Raid Shelter", Public Opinion Quarterly 1946–1947 Winter; 10(4):565-81. A different translation of the same report is included in "Hitler's Death: Russia's Last Great Secret From the Files of the KGB" by V.K. Vinogradov et al, although without the least acknowledgement that Reitsch had repudiated it.

redtessy21
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby redtessy21 » 30 Jul 2016 23:50

Hi,
read "Grey Wolf" by Simon Dunstan and Gerrard Williams.Available on amazon.
This pilot, unusually for smeone with 128 kills had no Ritterkreuz.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Sid Guttridge » 14 Mar 2017 13:52

No, don't waste your time.

The following is from an excoriating review of "Grey Wolf":

"Peter Erich Baumgart supposedly flew Hitler from Berlin to Tonder in Denmark sometime after 0300 on 28 April. He claimed that he flew via Magdeburg and reached Tonder on 29 April. However, Braumbach also claimed to have shot down 128 Allied planes, but no trace exists of this in any of several lists of German aces consulted by this reviewer. (The authors do not mention this significant question mark over Baumgart’s fundamental credibility in their text, but they do leave the victory claim buried in a photostat of a cutting from a provincial US newspaper, thereby covering themselves from an accusation of actually covering up unhelpful evidence.) Their source is Associated Press reportage of Baumgart’s trial in Poland for activities in the SS. At this trial he had to be assessed for his sanity (which again, is not in the body of the book, but “hidden in plain sight” in an unnumbered footnote.). After his release in 1951, “nothing is heard from him again”. Judge for yourself if Baumgart was a credible witness."

Cheers,

Sid.

Fides Germania
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Fides Germania » 30 Mar 2017 09:48

Hi,
Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945
Post by TuntematonSotilas » 23 Jul 2011, 02:02
This photo is not taken on the East - West Axis.
Photo analysis reveals that 1)the narrow roadway is insufficient to be the emergency runway 2) the location of the Brandenburg gate (seen in the background) 3) the shadow of the prop and lack of noticeable shadows indicates that the roadway shown runs approx north - south, the shot been taken between 11.00am and 1.00pm 4) the photo is taken in the Tiergarten (the plethora of trees). Using good old Google Earth my estimate is that the roadway existed pre 1953, definitely in recon shots in 1943 and 1945. It ran from Kemper-Platz in the south through to the old Königs-Platz (in front of the Reichstag) in the north. Where it was meant to cross the East - West Axis is exactly the present location (till it is relocated like all the Soviet statues in the former USSR) of the Soviet Victory Memorial!
Even though the road is no longer there a footpath follows its route exactly.
I don't know enough to identify the aircraft wreck,but if it is Soviet, the Zoo Flak tower was very close, 1500 meters (+/-). If German and was trying to land on the East - West Axis, by its location in the photo it would have to have been quite an effort to carry it there?
Rob
PS
GFM Keitel mentions an airfield in Rheinsberg (Brandenburg), far north of Berlin. Does anyone have any info. The reference is from his memoirs written in Nuremberg 1946 (edited by David Irving)
Thanks
Rob


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