Messerschmitt Bf 110 in action.

[phylo_roadking]

The pre-war Luftwaffe may have planned to use the Me-110 for ground attack. If so those plans changed after September 1939. The need for night fighters and recon aircraft plus relatively high aircraft cost mostly eliminated Me-110s from the CAS role.

The B-series 110s with the Jumo 210Ga engine installation might have different power characteristics...but the DB-engined 110s would have been a bit dubious for CAS.

Eric Brown tested a recovered C-model during the war, and a G-model afterwards; when flying both he noticed two glaring issues...one of which confirmed that the various Allied airforces anti-110 tactics had been right...

1/ the DB-installation in the 110 with its mechanical injectors was very slow to pick up speed when the throttles were opened; this was a complete killer when used as bomber escorts, as a dropping attack from the rear and a fast dive away, a "boom and zoom", would leave 110s wallowing to pursue an attacker who was diving away and picking up speed faster than the 110 the Poles discovered this, passed it on to the French....and both of them passed it on to the RAF.

This would have made it a bit of a bugger in CAS...leaving it very vulnerable to AA fire after an attack as it pulled away to altitude - slowly

2/ the SECOND problem "Winkle" discovered was that the 110 was actually pretty unresponsive to the controls, a bit sluggish...except when within 20-30 mph of its top speed; the small tail surfaces simply didn't have enough air flowing over them except RIGHT at the top end of the 110's performance envelope. An aircraft that is sluggish in steering and unresponsive is NOT an aircraft you want to be diving towards the ground in...let alone trying to draw a bead on a target!

[stril]

Hello
Just for the fun.From the guestbook of Offizersheim Bergen, a drawing of a Bf 110, and some coments
regards
stril

[tigre]

Hello to all ; more follows.............

The Messerschmitt Bf 110 in action.

Early years of the war.

The Battle of Britain.

The units which had Messerschmitt Bf-110 were deployed as follows:

Luftflotte 2.

ZG 26: Oberstleutnant Joachim-Friedrich Huth in Lille.
I. / ZG 26 Hauptmann Wilhelm Macrocki in Yvrench -St. Omer.
II. / ZG 26 Hauptmann Ralph v. Rettberg in Crécy-St. Omer.
III. / ZG 26 Hauptmann Johan Schalk in Barly-Arques.

ZG 76: Maj. Walter Grabmann in Laval.
II. / ZG 76 Maj. Erich Groth in Abbeville -Yvrench.
III. / ZG 76 Hauptmann Friedrich-Karl Dickoré in Laval (ex - II. / ZG 1).

Epr.Gr 210 Hauptmann Walter Rubensdörffer

Luftflotte 3.

V. (Z) / LG 1 Hauptmann Horst Liensberger in Caen.

ZG 2 Oberstleutnant Friedrich Vollbracht in Toussus le Noble.
I. / ZG 2 Maj. Ernst Ott (replaced Maj Johannes Gentzen + 26 May) in Caen-Carpiquet.
II. / ZG 2 Maj Harry Carl in Guyancourt (ex-I. / ZG 52).

Luftflotte 5.

I. / ZG 76 Hauptmann Werner Restemeyer in Stavanger-Forus.

Sources: Messerschmitt Bf 110. Die Rehabilitierung eines Flugzeuges. Michael Ziefle.
Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstorer Aces of World war 2. John Weal.
Schlag auf Schlag. Die Deutsche Luftwaffe in Polen. Wehrmacht Presse Verlag.
Fotoalbum Luftwaffe Me Bf 110 Staffelabzeichen Polen bei eBay_de 1918-1945 (endet 27_12_09 144556 MEZ).
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_norway.htm
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Messe ... f-110.html

Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Hello to all ; more follows.............

The Messerschmitt Bf 110 in action.

Early years of the war.

The Battle of Britain.

In the other side of the hill, the RAF had the following machines:

700 single-engine fighters (Hurricanes, Spitfires), of which there were 22 squadrons of Hurricanes (380 aircrafts) and 19 squadrons of Spitfire (320 aircrafts). On the other hand, the RAF would have the following advantages over the actions taking place: fly over their territory, hence a pilot who bailed out, would parachute land at home and would be recovered (immediately if he was not wounded or burned); high autonomy for the battle, due to short flights and besides a plane after landing could receive fuel and ammunition and be quickly in the air. On the other hand the British pilots (and allies) were directed to their targets by radar.

In other hand the German fighter pilots needed to provide coverage to the formations of bombers and they were thus tied to the bombers speed and had no freedom of action, a Ju-88 loaded with 2.5 tons of bombs and a He- 111 loaded with 2 tons had a speed of 320 to 340 k / h, while a Ju-87 with its load of bombs had 250 k / h. This provides considerable advantage to the British pilots, attacking from the sun or from below, more or less at 600-650 k / h.

Sources: Messerschmitt Bf 110. Die Rehabilitierung eines Flugzeuges. Michael Ziefle.
Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstorer Aces of World war 2. John Weal.
Schlag auf Schlag. Die Deutsche Luftwaffe in Polen. Wehrmacht Presse Verlag.
Fotoalbum Luftwaffe Me Bf 110 Staffelabzeichen Polen bei eBay_de 1918-1945 (endet 27_12_09 144556 MEZ).
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_norway.htm
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Messe ... f-110.html

Cheers. Raúl M .

[John Vasco]

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthr ... uns./page4

Me-110E with 3cm Mk101 cannon. 8./ZG26 operating in North Africa.

North Africa is an ideal place for tank busting aircraft to operate. There must be a combat record of this unit somewhere.

This is an old profile, and is incorrectly captioned. It shows one of the three Bf 110 C-6s that were on charge with 8./ZG 26, with the third character codes of 'X', 'Y' and 'Z'. There were no 'E' variants with the 30 mm Kanone.

[John Vasco]

Dave, detail on the C6 does seem thin on the ground, it's one to search specialist publications for ....but it's mostly referred to as an "experimental" type. It was in service tho'....with EprGr210 during the BoB among their amorphous groups of C/D variants for testing and specialised use - and at least one of those was passed to I./NJG 1. Did they ever get used in the CAS role for us to know how good they were or weren't??? As far as I'm aware Eprgr210 used them mostly for anti-shipping operations during the KanalKampf.

EprGr210 later became Schnellkampfgeschwader 210 (SKG 210) in time for Barbarossa - but by then were flying Es anyway. E.R. Hooton's OOB for Barbarossa mentions Cs in other units....but not what ausfrung.

Details on the Bf 110 C-6 are a little bit more than 'thin on the ground'. Only 12 were ever built. C-6s were operational with both SKG 210 and ZG 1 on the Russian front.

Erprobungsgruppe 210 also flew the Bf 110 E variant during it short lifespan.

[tigre]

Hello to all ; thanks to those who have contributed here . More follows...............

The Messerschmitt Bf 110 in action.

Early years of the war.

The Battle of Britain.

Actions.

Prior to the Adlertag on July 11, 1940 the III./ ZG 76 lost the Reichsmarschall Göring's nephew, Oberleutnant Hans-Joachim Göring during an escort flight. On August 8, 1940 machines belonging to the I. / ZG 2 and V (Z) / LG 1 escorted a formation of bombers and shot down 18 hostile aircraft without any loss of their own, while on August 11, 1940 50 Bf 110 of ZG 2 by using the tactics of the defense ring (abwehrkreis) lost 6 aircraft, including the Commander of its I. Group, Maj. Ernst Ott (he was replaced by Hauptmann Hans-Peter Külbel), but the bombers Ju-88 and He-111 reached its objective without casualties and bombed the fuel tanks in Portland. British fighters were concentrated in the twin-engine fighters and in turn suffered casualties that day, the RAF confirmed 15 aircraft shot down and one damaged.

In the afternoon, that very day, the Do-17 from the 9./KG 2 attacked a convoy of merchant ships called "Booty" offshore of Harwich; the bombers were escorted by 24 Bf 110 of Hauptmann Walter Rubensdörffer (Epr.Gr 210). The Sqn No.17 (Hurricanes), No.74 Sqn (Spitfire) and No.85 Sqn (Hurricanes) were engaged there, however two ships were burned and the RAF lost three aircraft, two Bf 110s were damaged but were able to reach their base.

Sources: Messerschmitt Bf 110. Die Rehabilitierung eines Flugzeuges. Michael Ziefle.
Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstorer Aces of World war 2. John Weal.
Schlag auf Schlag. Die Deutsche Luftwaffe in Polen. Wehrmacht Presse Verlag.
Fotoalbum Luftwaffe Me Bf 110 Staffelabzeichen Polen bei eBay_de 1918-1945 (endet 27_12_09 144556 MEZ).
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_norway.htm
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Messe ... f-110.html

Cheers. Raúl M .

[John Vasco]

tigre,
Whilst what you are attempting is laudable, it is dangerous if you post misleading, or even worse, wrong information.

1. You omit the whole of July's action, apart from mentioning the loss of Göring's nephew. So there is no mention of the missions by III./ZG 26; III./ZG 76; V.(Z)/LG 1 and Erprobungsgruppe 210.
2. For the 8th August you state that certain Bf 110 units flew missions and "...shot down 18 hostile aircraft without any loss of their own...". Perhaps you could explain, then, the 100% loss on that date of Bf 110 C-2 crewed by Fw. Alfred Sturm (FF) and Fw. Helmut Brunner (Bf) of 14.(Z)/LG 1, shot down into the Channel by RAF fighters. Both crewmen remain 'missing in action' to this day.
3. 11th August. Erprobungsgruppe 210 did not fly 'escort' to the Dorniers of KG 2. They flew as fighter-bombers and carried out the attack on convoy 'Booty' in conjunction with KG 2 aircraft. Bf 110 fighter escort was provided by I./ZG 26. You say "...the RAF lost three aircraft, two Bf 110s were damaged but were able to reach their base..." You do not say that 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 lost two Bf 110s and I./ZG 26 also lost two Bf 110s on this particular mission.

I have to say that you are posting incorrect and misleading information that other readers may believe to be correct.

I would also respectfully suggest you broaden your scope of reference material...

[tigre]

Hello John Vasco ; first of all thanks for joining and shedding light on this matter . Now respectfully I'll answer you:

1. Thanks for your suggest (fully appreciated).
2. Feel free to complement, correct or add to this post. Do not tell me, just do it (it means the forum is working).
3. I never try to write a book on this matter (there are so much and good); therefore for the Battle of Britain I chose August and September 1940. Even less try to be a source for others.
4.I know other people (not me surely) are the "experten" on this matter (perhaps you're one of them and could shed some light here).
5. Sure I'll broaden and check my sources (any notice will be appreciated)
6. There is absence of malice on any mistake on my behalf (I assume is the same in the case of the authors I put my scope).
7. To avoid posting incorrect and misleading information it's all folks (for the time being).

Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Ahh John Vasco (pillo ) I'm right, you're an "experten" after all. Congratulations for all those books. I'll try to get "Messerschmitt Bf 110: Bombsights Over England: Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain" it sounds interesting. Regards. Raúl M .