Me 262 went supersonic in 1944?

[jimharley]

The flight envelope for the Collings 262 is being explored as we speak. The aircraft will be based at Mather Field having been extensively reworked and upgraded by Sanders Aircraft in Ione California. The scope of the work done to the "replica" will make it a reliable tour aircraft. The test cards will slowly explore the entire flight envelope and a flight manual will be derived from these tests...including current VMC and VNE (among the other V speeds) numbers that will be closely adhered to. We have a couple highly experienced pilots and of course the crew from Sanders working toward making this a safe aircraft for all to enjoy. The Collings Aircraft is powered by the CJ6-10, which is basically the civilian version of the J-85. Once we have the numbers figured out I will post them here. The aircraft will hopefully be available for flight experiences/training in the not too distant future.

jim harley

I shot this about 5 years ago on a photoshoot into Paine Field when the aircraft was owned by a gentleman from Arizona.
Last year at Sanders
Last year at Sanders

[Topspeed]

Thanks Jim !

They have a mach meter in it too !

Good looking 2-seater.

rgds,

Juke

[Topspeed]

In spite of all that has been done to try to help you, you still come out with this nonsense. Your question shows you still do not have the faintest idea.

The DC-8 and the VC10 were a later generation of aircraft design and by then the problems of local compressibility were well understood.......

I think the point here is not understanding the compressibility...DC-8 is a passenger plane...and I heard 1942 design Ta-183 would have been modern still in the sixties....and guess what...262 featured 2 x more thrust than Ta-183. Also 262 featured wing trailing edge similar to Mig-17 which was the first super sonic jet to reach speed of sound in level flight.

DC-8 was mach 0.88 mover and super sonic in a dive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Messe ... hwable.jpg

My guess is that Motke was lucky and did go supersonic first.

The keys to Motke's success were;

1. He used all movin elevator stabiliser trim to recover from near vertical dive
2. He had been flying a very lightly loaded plane as thus reached very high altitude
3. His engines quit at the same time
4. Plane had aerodynamic features used in high speed planes not known until later ( trailing edge junction )

Dunserving...you can deny all these facts...I really don't want to argue any further about it.

[jimharley]

From what I have observed comparing the original to the replica, the replica is not 100% accurate...very close but alot of changes were implemented. That said...and here again I am not an expert on structures but this airframe is quite fragile. The landing gear doors are plywood (the nosegear door actually blew off on this photo mission), the leading edge slats are automatic and not held together by much structure...similar set up to the 109. They free float on roller bearings that don't seem substantial enough to go supersonic. The original airframe that was modeled was crudely built and some of the faults were passed on to the replica which have been rectified. There are also issues of flutter, did any of them undergo flutter testing? The canopy latching system also leaves alot to be desired as far as integrity...which has also been rectified. Being a pilot I personally would stay well below any high mach numbers in this airplane. The P-51 really gets stiff around 350mph, to the point any real manuevering requires two hands on the stick...I cannot imagine the 262's manual control system at a high mach number.

jim harley

[Topspeed]

Bill Sweetman says in High Speed Flight that Me 262 was tested for super sonic flight in a tunnel with 7/8 inch model !!!!!

He put lotsa effort to say it was more advanced than designers actually even comprehended at the time it was designed. Cigar shaped engine nacelles was one of the points.

[jimharley]

The test data from Wright Field lists the Top Speed of the 262 at 540MPH. Whether this number was "adjusted" to not make American aircraft look too inferior can be taken into conjecture. The fact that the 262 WAS recognized as being superior to the Bell P-59 and Lockheed P-80 has never been in dispute. The F-86 and F-84 were the first US jets that could outclass the 262 in both speed and performance. I have no doubt that German aircraft technology served as a platform for all modern aerodynamics. The use of the swept wing was the most significant leap in aircraft design and really wasn't fully understood into the late 50's. Our first generation jets used "hershey bar" shaped wings, post war our jets, both military and civilian went swept. Unfortunately the postwar 262 testing program was cut short for numerous reasons one of which being lack of spare engines. I've seen and photographed 6 original 262s and all have adequate but crude construction, including the Czech built Avia 262. They are riddled with parasitic drag due to poor workmanship.

It would have been interesting to see what Howard Hughes could have achieved had he been allowed to race during the heyday of the cross-country races being held. Herein lies my doubt about the USAAF top speed numbers. I think if Hughes had been able to groom the 262 the way he intended its true potential would have shown through. He was nixed from racing his 262 by the USAAF. The ex-Howard Hughes 262 is now under restoration to fly with Paul Allen's collection...with the original engines. It is also hard to argue with veterans who were there. I've talked to vets who say they had the Mustang up around 550mph...I never argue...but like the 262 I believe parts would start to leave the airframe. just my humble 2 cents

jim

[Piotr Mikołajski]

Why what makes the aerodymics of the plane so bad

Your lack of knowledge makes it so bad. You are are putting together completely unrelated facts from different eras of aviation history and you are drawing false conclusions which are your "proofs" in discussion. Disscussion with you is senseless and counterproductive because you "know" and your faith in your claims is as strong as faith of any neophyte.

[Topspeed]

The test data from Wright Field lists the Top Speed of the 262 at 540MPH. Whether this number was "adjusted" to not make American aircraft look too inferior can be taken into conjecture. The fact that the 262 WAS recognized as being superior to the Bell P-59 and Lockheed P-80 has never been in dispute. The F-86 and F-84 were the first US jets that could outclass the 262 in both speed and performance.
jim

Bill Sweetman recognises that Me 262 had officially clocked 624 mph with a souped up canopy...similar speed was obtained with specially tuned P-80 Locheed "Shooting Star" couple of year later.

[phylo_roadking]

Bill Sweetman recognises that Me 262 had officially clocked 624 mph with a souped up canopy

Problem is....this facility wasn't availble to Motke...

[Sid Guttridge]

Mutke took forty years to suggest that he might have broken the sound barrier.

He had no direct evidence for this, only indirect evidence based on the fact that unusual handling characteristics he experienced mimicked those sometimes experienced when going transsonic. The problem with this is that these unusual handling characteristics can also be experienced at subsonic speeds.

Willi Messerschmitt, who designed and built the aircraft didn't think it was possible. To repeat a very early reference on p.1 of this overlong thread:

"Messerschmitt conducted a detailed series of wind tunnel and flight tests to determine the maximum speed his creation could achieve. Flight tests included a series of dives similar to that experienced by Hans Mutke. Messerschmitt concluded that the Me 262 could not exceed Mach 0.86 without becoming completely uncontrollable. Any higher Mach number would generate a nose-down pitch so strong that the pilot would not be able to overcome it. This pitch would constantly increase the plane's dive angle to the point that the aircraft would disintegrate under the negative g-loads. The Royal Aircraft Establishment in the United Kingdom later confirmed these findings during Britain's evaluation of the Me 262 after the war. The RAE found that the maximum safe speed that could be attained was Mach 0.84, and any higher speed would result in a fatal, uncontrollable dive from which recovery was not possible.

In light of this information, it seems very unlikely that Hans Mutke broke the sound barrier in 1945 while flying the Me 262."

However, it is possible that he was, for a period, the fastest man alive!

[Piotr Mikołajski]

However, it is possible that he was, for a period, the fastest man alive!

And he probably was the fastest man alive but it still pretty far from being "the first one who survived supersonic flight".

[Tim Smith]

Agreed. I suspect Motke went Mach 0.85, beyond the maximum safe speed, and survived. Maybe he went as fast as it is humanly possible to go in an Me 262 without killing yourself. Fastest Me 262 pilot ever - and the fastest man alive in 1945!

That's enough of a claim to fame without needing to break the sound barrier as well.

Going off topic slightly.....

If I were a horrible, evil, ruthless, fanatical Nazi in WW2, and was as obsessed as Topspeed is with breaking the sound barrier, I'd convert a V2 missile into a manned rocket by replacing the warhead with a makeshift one-man capsule. Then I'd get the SS to persuade a German prisoner (doesn't matter what he's being imprisoned for) to volunteer for the flight, telling him he will be free to go home if he survives.

The capsule would be fitted with explosives to blow it free of the missile body, and parachutes in the nose cap to enable it to parachute to safety - but the flight profile would involve only blowing the capsule free after the missile engine has reached burnout and the rocket is back under 20,000 feet altitude.

The expendable test subject.... er, 'pilot' would be tightly strapped into his seat (well padded to cope with the acceleration) so that he can't move anything except his fingers (so he doesn't upset the gyros). He'd being wearing a special 'pressurised' flight suit and oxygen mask to cope with the high altitude reached at apogee. He'd be in touch with flight control via radio. He'd also have an 'ejection' button under his hand so that he could bail out at any time (except, the button would be only a 'placebo', it wouldn't do anything except delude him into feeling safer. Until he presses it, that is - but never mind, his undignified and unprofessional screams can always be cut from the radio transmission recording before it's released to the public.)

I'm not sure whether successful separation would occur when the missile... er, rocket, is plunging earthwards at well over Mach 2. But the test sub.... er, pilot's survival is really just a bonus, not critical to the mission's success. More 'volunteers' can always be found.

It would be a very risky mission, no question, but if successful, Germany would not only be the first nation to break the sound barrier in manned flight, but the first nation to break Mach 4!

V2 flight profile data: http://www.aerorocket.com/V-2/V2Flight.html

[Topspeed]

If I were a horrible, evil, ruthless, fanatical Nazi in WW2, and was as obsessed as Topspeed is with breaking the sound barrier, I'd convert a V2 missile into a manned rocket by replacing the warhead with a makeshift one-man capsule.

No I hate nazis..and mostly the Illinois nazis. I am not fanatic...I just want to fight for the justice.

RAE discovered that even Spitfire went mach 0.92 with a mach meter on board.

If the Motke story is true...then yes he was the first super sonic dude....I have no trouble saying that just because he fought in the Luftwaffe.

[Topspeed]

Bill Sweetman recognises that Me 262 had officially clocked 624 mph with a souped up canopy

Problem is....this facility wasn't availble to Motke...

No but the fact is that his power was doubled ( nearly tribled ) when he hit the plane into deep dive...and accelerated rapidly into mach 1+ at very high altitude.

It was dicovered already in the 1920s that a jet engine can go supersonic....unlike a prop engine. Underdeveloped Jumo seized and luckily speed decelerated rapidly so that the trans sonic buffeting was kept minimum in both ways.

[LWD]

... No but the fact is that his power was doubled ( nearly tribled ) when he hit the plane into deep dive...

Are you sure this is a fact? In any case it is only part of the equation.

and accelerated rapidly into mach 1+ at very high altitude.

As has been demonstrated that is extremly unlikely?

It was dicovered already in the 1920s that a jet engine can go supersonic....unlike a prop engine.

Irrelevant.

Underdeveloped Jumo seized and luckily speed decelerated rapidly so that the trans sonic buffeting was kept minimum in both ways.

Rather incoherent. Likely to be irrelevant in Motke's case anyway as said Jumo's had flamed out had they not?