LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, production

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phylo_roadking
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby phylo_roadking » 18 Oct 2011 20:47

More yearly production figures...

1939 - 551

1940 - 388

1945 - 371
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Urmel
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 18 Oct 2011 21:10

My guess is that the jump in 1943 is due to French production kicking in?

Interesting to see the drop 1939 to 1940. Is that capacity competition from the Ju 88?
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Jon G.
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 18 Oct 2011 21:12

phylo_roadking wrote:...
Here's something I've wondered about for some time - but I as yet haven't found anything either way....what triggered to ordering process for more??? Did the RLM just order replacements by batch when required by major losses...or was ordering/construction of 52s a rolling process?

As in....did 1943 see peak production BECAUSE of the losses, or simply because Junkers had got their sh1t together and got the production rate up as mentioned before?


One thing that may well have ramped up production of Ju-52s in 1943 may have been the cancellation of its planned replacement, I forget if it was called the Ju-252 or if it was the Ju-352.

I've gleamed through Vajda & Dancey (ed.) German Aircraft Industry and Production 1933-1945 to harvest some Ju-52 figures. Now, if Nowarra is a crypto-nazi, then Vajda is the same, minus the crypto, which makes me somewhat wary using his figures, then again, if you skip the execrable and rambling narrative, and just read the tables and period sources which are often printed in toto, then Vajda's a fairly decent German aviation industry history.

German* Ju-52 production, by year:

1939 145 (last three months of year only)
1940 388
1941 502
1942 503
1943 887
1944 379
1945 0

Junkers Ju-52 production, by year:

1934 175
1935 347
1936 221
1937 210
1938 300
1939 578
1940 303
1941 301
1942 329
1943 318
1944 81
1945 0

Remember, some of those (especially a/c built before 1939) were exported.

French Ju-52 production

1942 40
1943 321
1944 241

Tables from Vajda & Dancey pp 146, 217 and 250 respectively.

...additionally, Fokker (in Holland) built parts for Ju-52 and refurbished older machines, but didn't build any Ju-52s of its own.

* Edited to clarify: although it is not evident from Vajda's tables, I interpret this as production for Germany, that is, the figure also includes aircraft built in France for the Germans, but excludes any aircraft exported, or not built for German customers, whether built inside or outside Germany.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby phylo_roadking » 18 Oct 2011 21:20

Interesting to see the drop 1939 to 1940. Is that capacity competition from the Ju 88?


I'd guess at at least ONE possible factor...Junkers' new building capacity from the middle of June onwards must have been compromised to some extent by the rebuilding of the Holland and other damaged aircraft. Somewhere (MacDonald?) I remember reading they had to set up a parallel "production" line...
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby phylo_roadking » 18 Oct 2011 21:24

I forget if it was called the Ju-252 or if it was the Ju-352


Jon, it was the 252.....the 352 was the 252 manufactured using non-strategic materials as far as possible - but apparently it was "noticeably inferior" to the 252.
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 18 Oct 2011 22:34

JBond wrote:My guess is that the jump in 1943 is due to French production kicking in?


Yep, that's validated by the figures I posted, where it's obvious that Junkers' own Ju-52 production peaked in 1942.

Interesting to see the drop 1939 to 1940. Is that capacity competition from the Ju 88?


That's probably part of the explanation, but only part of it. The Ju-88 was planned for production on a massive scale right from the start whereas the Ju-52 was only built at a few factories.

In addition to Junkers' own production, French production and Dutch production of spare parts, Blohm & Voss of Hamburg also built parts for the Ju-52, and ATG of Leipzig built Ju-52s as follows:

1936 72
1937 50

...then Ju-52 production was apparently abandoned in favour of He-111s and Ju-86s, but it was restarted again after the outbreak of war:

1940 120
1941 201
1942 204
1943 258
1944 101

ATG also built Ju-88s from 1940 and on.

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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby RichTO90 » 19 Oct 2011 00:18

Jon G. wrote:Junkers Ju-52 production, by year:

1934 175
1935 347
1936 221
1937 210
1938 300
1939 578
1940 303
1941 301
1942 329
1943 318
1944 81
1945 0


Acceptances as given in the USSBS present a slightly different picture from production:

1939
(ATG-Liepzig) - 593
1940
(ATG-Liepzig) - 401
1941
(Junkers-Bernberg) - 283
(ATG-Liepzig) - 168
1942
(Junkers-Bernberg) - 292
(ATG-Liepzig) - 172
(Amiot-France) - 40
1943
(Junkers-Bernberg) - 318
(ATG-Liepzig) - 261
(Amiot-France) - 321
1944
(Junkers-Bernberg) - 89
(ATG-Liepzig) - 132
(Amiot-France) - 155
(Pirt-Budapest) - 4

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Jon G.
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 03:49

Interesting figures Rich, thanks for posting them. You note the difference between acceptances and aircraft produced, but it's still a bit difficult to reconcile your figures with Vajda and Dancey's.

For example, V&D have 388 Ju-52 built in total in 1940, and (in seperate tables) 303 built at Junkers, plus a further 120 built at ATG, supposedly the difference was for exports and/or civilian users? But your figure is a little higher.

What is your opinion about the reliability of Vajda and Dancey?

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Re: German transport fleet - losses on major operations

Postby Urmel » 19 Oct 2011 09:20

JBond wrote:Now for a quick look at stock and production:

1939
Stock at start of war: 552 available (100 in dedicated transport groups, 450 available elsewhere, includes schools)
Production during year (Sept-Dec only): 145
Stock at end of year: ?
Deduced write-offs: ?

1940
Stock at start of year: ?
Production during year: 388
Stock at end of year: ?
Deduced write-offs: ?

1941
Stock at start of year: ?
Production during year: 502
Stock at end of year: ?
Deduced write-offs: ?

1942
Stock at start of year: ?
Production during year: 503
Stock at end of year: ?
Deduced write-offs: ?

1943
Stock at start of year: ?
Production during year: 887
Stock at end of year: ?
Deduced write-offs: ?
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 19 Oct 2011 09:22

Until we figure out what acceptance refers to, I have added Jon's production numbers to the initial post. Does anyone have the numbers for other transport a/c? I presume they'll be so small not to matter, but still...
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 19 Oct 2011 09:23

Sh*t. I can't edit the initial posts anymore. Is there anything that can be done about that?
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

Jon G.
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 10:09

I can do it for you.

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Urmel
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 19 Oct 2011 10:15

Thanks. What I wanted to do was add info into the initial posts, in order to avoid it being strewn about 20 pages of thread. So all the info is easy to access at the start, and those who are as sad as I am can read the whole thread to follow it up on sources and discussion.
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

Jon G.
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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 10:18

I'll see what I can dig out from Mr. Vajda's collection of anti-Versailles outbursts and Messerschmitt ads. But let me have some coffee first.

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Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby RichTO90 » 19 Oct 2011 11:14

Jon G. wrote:Interesting figures Rich, thanks for posting them. You note the difference between acceptances and aircraft produced, but it's still a bit difficult to reconcile your figures with Vajda and Dancey's.

For example, V&D have 388 Ju-52 built in total in 1940, and (in seperate tables) 303 built at Junkers, plus a further 120 built at ATG, supposedly the difference was for exports and/or civilian users? But your figure is a little higher.

What is your opinion about the reliability of Vajda and Dancey?


Ooops, my fault, the 1939 and 1940 figures are total acceptances from all producers and not just ATG. Otherwise, those are the figures for production acceptances by the Luftwaffe and not production figures. Production is problematic though. Although Nowarra gives 241 as Amiot production in 1944 only 155 were accepted by the Luftwaffe; the remainder were produced for the Armee de l'Air.

I have no opinion on the reliability of Vajda and Dancey. But the 303 by Junkers and 120 by ATG in 1940 is simply Nowarra's production list reused again.

Cheers!


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