LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, production

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17478
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby phylo_roadking » 19 Oct 2011 11:36

Although Nowarra gives 241 as Amiot production in 1944 only 155 were accepted by the Luftwaffe; the remainder were produced for the Armee de l'Air.


Yep, as noted up the thread, AAC (Amiot renamed) began production for the Armee De L'air very quickly; on the day Paris was liberated, there would have been x-number on the production line, and parts for x-number more on their way through the supply chain. I'm away from my books today, but IIRC Nowarra discusses how fast production got up and running again at Colombes.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 19 Oct 2011 11:55, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6452
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 01:12
Location: Europe

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 11:39

Thanks, Rich. So we got Vajda & Dancey nailed on the French Ju-52s built in 1944. I hope that doesn't bode too badly for these figures, for they are all compiled from Vajda/Dancey:

Code: Select all

Production of other types. Gliders omitted.


Model ->    Ju-352    Fw-200    Me-323    Go-244    Ju-90    Ju-290

1938          -         ?         -         -         2        -

1939          -         1         -         -         5        -

1940          -        36         -         -         6        -

1941          -        58         -         -         3        -

1942          -        84        27        43         1        2

1943          -        76       140         -         -       20

1944          1         8        34         -         -       29

1945         30         -         -         -         -        -


I didn't bother including He-111s and He-177s, perhaps I should have. I'll follow up with Italian transport a/c (captured or built for the Luftwaffe after Sept. 1943) later.

Code: Select all

Quarterly strength returns of Luftwaffe transport groups (operational and serviceable)

Sept. 1939 552
Dec.  1939   ?

Mar.  1940 466
June  1940 357
Sept  1940 365
Dec.  1940 415

Mar.  1941 713
June  1941   ?
Sept  1941   ?
Dec.  1941 991

Mar.  1942   ?
June  1942 957
Sept  1942   ?
Dec.  1942 881

Mar.  1943   ?
June  1943 850
Sept. 1943   ?
Dec.  1943 903

Mar.  1944   ?
June  1944 944
Sept. 1944   ?
Dec.  1944 500

Feb.  1945 505


...table 2 should be handled with care, since, as we know, the Luftwaffe habitually plundered flying schools, civilian airlines and bomber units for aircraft for its Transportverbände when needed.

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6452
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 01:12
Location: Europe

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 12:55

I have edited JBond's post on p. 1 of this thread to include 'other type' production totals. It should be evident that the overwhelming part of German transport aircraft built was of the Ju-52 variety.

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6452
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 01:12
Location: Europe

Hungarian and Italian aircraft

Postby Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 15:39

As noted in Rich's post, above, PIRT of Budapest built 4 Ju-52s for the Germans. Total number of Ju-52 produced in Hungary amounted to 32.

The Germans placed an order for 100 SM-82s with the Italians in September 1942, but I don't know how many of those were built and delivered. Vajda & Dancey give the total as 'nearly 200' combined captures and direct orders for the Germans by Sept. 1943 [note how the 3rd quarter 1943 strength return increases] and a further 299 SM-82s were ordered post-Sept. 1943, but only 231 delivered. 50 SM-82s were handed over to the RSI air force.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 3696
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 19 Oct 2011 15:45

Many thanks Jon.
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4236
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 18:03

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby RichTO90 » 19 Oct 2011 22:17

Jon G. wrote:Thanks, Rich. So we got Vajda & Dancey nailed on the French Ju-52s built in 1944. I hope that doesn't bode too badly for these figures, for they are all compiled from Vajda/Dancey:

Code: Select all

Production of other types. Gliders omitted.


Model ->    Ju-352    Fw-200    Me-323    Go-244    Ju-90    Ju-290

1938          -         ?         -         -         2        -

1939          -         1         -         -         5        -

1940          -        36         -         -         6        -

1941          -        58         -         -         3        -

1942          -        84        27        43         1        2

1943          -        76       140         -         -       20

1944          1         8        34         -         -       29

1945         30         -         -         -         -        -


I didn't bother including He-111s and He-177s, perhaps I should have. I'll follow up with Italian transport a/c (captured or built for the Luftwaffe after Sept. 1943) later.


Sorry, but that doesn't match at all with the acceptances. The Ju-352 was first accepted in November 1943 (1) with four total during the year. In 1944 another 39 were accepted. FW-200 were not counted as "transports" in Luftwaffe service, so there is no way to match them other than as bombers/maritime reconnaissance. Me-323, Go-244, and Ju-90 also do not appear as transport acceptances. The Ju-290 was 24 in 1943 and 21 in 1944, the Sm-82 was 32 in 1943 and 79 in 1944. Otherwise the principal "medium" transport counted was the Do-24 with 15 in 1939, 2 in 1941, 20 in 1943, and 26 in 1944 and the Do-18 with 44 in 1939 and 50 in 1940.

The nice thing is that "acceptances" should include those both manufactured and accepted by the Luftwaffe as well as civil aviation and captured aircraft seized and put into Luftwaffe service. The bad thing is that the figures do not include prior to 1939 or 1945...and that the phrase "should include" is included in the previous sentence. 8-)

I can dig out Speer's Schnellberichte figures except IIRC they are only for type and not for model, so probably aren't helpful. :x

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6452
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 01:12
Location: Europe

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 22:43

Thanks for the corrections, Rich. I don't mind Vajda & Dancey being shown to be wrong. I'll have to check with them if something went wrong when I transcribed the tables.

I sort of knew that the FW-200 didn't 'count' as a transport, but decided to include it because the Luftwaffe used it as such, and not just at Stalingrad. The same goes for the Ju-90 and Ju-290, which were in any case only built in very small numbers. I am however a little surprised that the Go-244 and (especially) Me-323 weren't counted as transports in Luftwaffe inventories?

If I had included flying boats, I should probably also have counted the miniscule number of BV-222s built, it's surprising to me that the Do-18 and Do-24 were classified as transports.

Do you know if any SM-82s were accepted by the Luftwaffe prior to Sept. 9 1943?

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4236
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 18:03

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby RichTO90 » 19 Oct 2011 23:10

Jon G. wrote:Thanks for the corrections, Rich. I don't mind Vajda & Dancey being shown to be wrong. I'll have to check with them if something went wrong when I transcribed the tables.

I sort of knew that the FW-200 didn't 'count' as a transport, but decided to include it because the Luftwaffe used it as such, and not just at Stalingrad. The same goes for the Ju-90 and Ju-290, which were in any case only built in very small numbers. I am however a little surprised that the Go-244 and (especially) Me-323 weren't counted as transports in Luftwaffe inventories?

If I had included flying boats, I should probably also have counted the miniscule number of BV-222s built, it's surprising to me that the Do-18 and Do-24 were classified as transports.

Do you know if any SM-82s were accepted by the Luftwaffe prior to Sept. 9 1943?


Wellll... :D

The FW 200 was a civilian transport, but to the Luftwaffe it was a maritime reconnaissance bomber that got pressed into service as a military transport...and some of those ISTR were actually Lufthansa aircraft literally pressed into service and not formally acquired (and thus not "accepted") by the Luftwaffe.

You could also "count" the two Ju 89 along with the Ju 90, especially since the Ju 90 V1 was actually the completed Ju 89 V3. :D Otherwise, all except the Ju 90 V8 were also commercial aircraft prototypes and the V11 actually became the Ju 290 V1...so its already counted - maybe. Of course, since all those prototype commercial aircraft were accepted after the war began it sort of shoots down my theory that the Luftwaffe acceptances list included aircraft acquired from commercial aviation... :(

BV 22 was 1 in 1942, 4 in 1943, and 1 in 1944.

Anyway, the Go 244 was 41 in 1942, while the Me 323 was 28 in 1942, 141 in 1943, and 29 in 1944...they appear as "gliders", which they were - powered gliders. :lol:

The Sm 82 was 4 in April, 4 in July, 3 in August, and 21 in November 1943.

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 3696
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 20 Oct 2011 09:24

There must have been at least one or two BV-222 in service prior to 1942, since they were used for supplies to North Africa in late 1941?
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6452
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 01:12
Location: Europe

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 20 Oct 2011 09:42

I have 7 BV-222As built between May 1941 and Aug 1942. Even that seems a little late? It could be that the prototype is not included in this total. As we know, the BV-222 was used extensively on the Taranto-Libya route until it was completely worn out for lack of spares.

Additionally, 8 BV-222Bs were built from Jul 1943 to Mar 1944.

Originally, the BV-222 flying boats were ordered by the Lufthansa in 1937 so might not figure in acceptance figures cf. Rich's post above.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 3696
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 20 Oct 2011 10:22

The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6452
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 01:12
Location: Europe

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 21 Oct 2011 15:23

Interesting.

As posted on the other thread, 12 52/3m4ge's were modified in 1941 as convoy escorts with heavier armament: apart from the open dorsal MG-15, this sub-mark also had a manually operated turret with a 20 mm MG-151, two beam-mounted MG-15s, and the ventral 'dustbin' known from the auxiliary bomber version was reinstated. These Ju-52s were assigned to the Crete-based II/KG z. b. V. 1 which flew supply missions for Rommel, flying in otherwise unescorted missions, all according to William Green.

Green gives losses for the air bridge to 'Festung Breslau' in the last few months of the war as '165 Ju-52/3m's and He-111s'

From the other end of the war, he states that only 12 Ju-52s were lost in operations during the Polish campaign, while combined losses for Sept. 1939 were 44.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 3696
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 21 Oct 2011 15:43

Anything on the air bridge to North Africa?
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6452
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 01:12
Location: Europe

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Jon G. » 21 Oct 2011 16:08

Unfortunately, very little beyond what I've already paraphrased, and AFAICS no hard numbers. At least not under the Ju-52 header, it's a rather massive book.

EDITED to add: there is however a bit about the BV-222 in the Mediterranean. The BV-222 V1 flew to Athens in September 1941, but upon arrival in the Mediterranean it was discovered that the underside of the big flying boat was covered with a thick layer of shellfish, so it had to return to Hamburg to have it removed. It returned in October.

From October 16 until November 6, the BV-222 made 17 return flights to Derna, carrying some 30,000 kilograms of supply to Rommel, and returning with 515 wounded. In November it returned to Blohm & Voss again, this time to have defensive armament fitted.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 3696
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: LW transport fleet - losses, operations, stock, producti

Postby Urmel » 29 Oct 2011 10:40

Okay, many thanks for this on the BV 222. I have an ULTRA intercept stating that on 6 Dec 41 3 BV 222 and Ju 90 V7 (I believe that is 3 total, not 3 each) were allotted to Fliegerkorps X from the Eastern Front.

Another intercept states that 2. KG 40 was at Lecce at the time, with FW 200. These were then engaged in emergency transport I believe, but were unpopular compared to the Aunties, and presumably the much better Italian kit, in this role.
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42


Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]