Luftwaffe vs RAF

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
RichTO90
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 18 May 2015 20:58

Juha Tompuri wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:
Kurfürst wrote:The numbers are for Tagjagd only, ie. day fighters.


Sure. I don't believe there were any single-engine Nachtjagd at this time.
http://www.ww2.dk/air/njagd/njg1.htm

Regards, Juha


Indeed, yes, for a week or so while they converted, but the new aircraft after conversion were twin-engine. I do not believe they were operational as single-engine night fighters. :D

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 19 May 2015 18:19

Kurfürst wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:To be precise, Übersicht über Soll, Istbestand, Einsatzbereitschaft, Verluste und Reserven der fliegenden Verbänden, RL 2 III/700, states that as of 28 June there were 1,309 single-engine fighter pilots assigned against an establishment of 1,398, and of those 1,089 were ready for operations and 82 were on light duty. As of 27 September the number assigned had increased to 1,452 against an establishment of 1,450, but those ready had fallen to 994 with 334 on light duty.

So there were actually 143 more available, but 95 fewer ready for operations.


The numbers are for Tagjagd only, ie. day fighters.

RichTO90 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:
Kurfürst wrote:The numbers are for Tagjagd only, ie. day fighters.


Sure. I don't believe there were any single-engine Nachtjagd at this time.
http://www.ww2.dk/air/njagd/njg1.htm

Regards, Juha


Indeed, yes, for a week or so while they converted
Wonder what exact "week or so" you mean?

I do not believe they were operational as single-engine night fighters.
Well, AFAIK they belonged to night fighter unit(s).

Regards, Juha

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 25 May 2015 03:32

Juha Tompuri wrote:Wonder what exact "week or so" you mean?


The three Staeffeln of IV./JG2 became II./NJG1 on 22 June 1940 and then were renamed III./NJG1 on 1 July 1940, they began converting to the Bf 110 in August. They do not appear to have been operational during that time, but were in training, first at Amsterdam-Schipol and then at Düsseldorf.

Well, AFAIK they belonged to night fighter unit(s).

Regards, Juha


Which, of course, has nothing to do with the contention of the original poster that the numbers of aircraft and pilots as given in the quarterly muster of the Luftwaffe somehow concealed the "real" figures of single-engine fighters and pilots available. Nor, of course, does it have anything to do with my response.

Cheers!

Rich

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Kurfürst » 27 May 2015 13:19

RichTO90 wrote:
Kurfürst wrote:The numbers are for Tagjagd only, ie. day fighters.


Sure. I don't believe there were any single-engine Nachtjagd at this time.


I am working from memory of some old research, but compare the Tagjagd units from the end of June 1940 to the end of September, December 1940 Quarterly returns and you should find that some Units gone missing and were re-designated to NJGs - initially with their old Tagjagd 109s, and probably converting, in time, to twin engines as you mentioned.

In other words, the number of pilots increased, but the number of experienced pilots decreased. AFAIK the "on light duty" is not an accurate translation, as the "Einsatzbereit" or Ready of Action meant pilots with 5 sorties or more experience.


Really? I have never seen it expressed that way before. Einsatzbereit means "ready for action". I have not heard the qualifier before. However, I am also unclear as to what got translated as "light duty" in the original. Do you have some references on that?[/quote]

I can't recall where I read it exactly, but I am fairly certain about the "5 combat sortie" qualitification mark. It makes sense since the normal path of pilot replacement was from training schools to OTU (Ergänzungseinheten) to combat units, where they initially flew in less dangerous task under the wings of more experienced pilots. Plus there is too far substantial and increasing number of pilots being listed that way, as "conditionally ready" and its hard to imagine there was such a number suffering from some illness or having flu all the time. It would seem logic that the pilots of limited experience / effectiveness, i.e. rookies were listed that way.

Also there is some statistical pittfall in the numbers, since in the meantime between end of June and end of September some JGs (and their pilots) were either disbanded/merged etc, and some were transferred from Tagjagd to the just emerging Nachtjagd units. Moreso, not the entirety of the Tagjagd was employed for England operations.


Um, no, since those are for the fliegenden Verbänden as a whole.[/quote]

I do not think so - your numbers seem to total to 1171 "present" pilots, which is the same number reported by WW2.DK on the same time, problably from the same source, for "single engined fighters", which I identify with the Tagdjagd. http://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se290640.htm However WW2. DK also reports that there were similar returns for "Twin engined fighter" (mistranstlation of Zerstörerverbände or Destroyer units?) and "night fighters" for the same date. Unfortunately the returns are not digitalized for the latter two, but there should be some additional single engined fighters, i.e. 109 present there during the June - September period, as was the case with IV Gruppe JG 2 mentioned. I.e. some units and strength numbers simply disappeared from one fighter arm as they were transferred to another.

The point being that since the LW tended to class units based on their role, and not neccesarily by the type, and since some JG units changed their roles and become NJGs, the statistics between the quarterly returns do not only reflect to operational losses, but reorganization effects as well.

Or is this 109 (belonging to a night fighter unit) included in the (daylight) JG strenght returns too, along with its look alike brothers?
Or is it one of the 39 of IV./JG 2's 109Es and Ds that were listed as present on 28 June 1940 strenght returns, but disappeared from the strenght returns of 28 September 1940, since IV./JG 2 become a Gruppe of the newly formed NJG 1 with mixed 110s and 109s in the meantime, along with the pilots and planes?

Image

The December 1940 figures are also telltale of these organisational effect. Certainly there were no huge losses in October or November, yet the sharpest decline in operational strenght can be witnessed in the December numbers - more of a result of a massive rest and refit and Xmas leaves in the December lull period.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 27 May 2015 13:50

Kurfürst wrote:I am working from memory of some old research, but compare the Tagjagd units from the end of June 1940 to the end of September, December 1940 Quarterly returns and you should find that some Units gone missing and were re-designated to NJGs - initially with their old Tagjagd 109s, and probably converting, in time, to twin engines as you mentioned.


Exactly one Gruppe, IV./JG2, was so converted. Out of roughly 29 Gruppen operational at this time. Most of the Nachtjagd came from the ZG.

I can't recall where I read it exactly, but I am fairly certain about the "5 combat sortie" qualitification mark. It makes sense since the normal path of pilot replacement was from training schools to OTU (Ergaezungseinheten) to combat units, where they initially flew in less dangerous task under the wings of more experienced pilots. Plus there is too far substantial and increasing number of pilots being listed that way, as "conditionally ready" and its hard to imagine there was such a number suffering from some illness or having flu all the time. It would seem logic that the pilots of limited experience / effectiveness, i.e. rookies were listed that way.


Okay, I accept your memory, but until I find a source confirming it, my acceptance is understandably conditional.

Anyway, "limited duty" for a combat unit would likely included those wounded and recovering, shot down pilots who bailed and were recovered, and (given the way the Heer recorded it) even those on leave.

I do not think so - your numbers seem to total to 1171 "present" pilots, which is the same number reported by WW2.DK on the same time, problably from the same source, for "single engined fighters", which I identify with the Tagdjagd. http://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se290640.htm However WW2.DK also reports that there were similar returns for "Twin engined fighter" (mistranstlation of Zestoererverbanden or Destroyer units?) and "night fighters" for the same date. Unfortunately the returns are not digitalized for the latter two, but there should be some additional single engined fighters, i.e. 109 present there during the June - September period, as was the case with IV Gruppe JG2 mentioned. I.e. some units and strenght numbers simply disappeared from one fighter arm as they were transferred to another.

The point being that since the LW tended to class units based on their role, and not neccesarily by the type, and since some JG units changed their roles and become NJGs, the statistics between the quarterly returns do not only reflect to operational losses, but reorganization effects as well. The December 1940 figures are also telltale of these organisational effect. Certainly there were no huge losses in October or November, yet the sharpest decline in operational strenght can be witnessed in the December numbers - more of a result of a massive rest and refit and Xmas leaves in the December lull period.


Yes, the figures are from Michael Holme's excellent site, but they are taken from a document giving the strength of the fliegenden Verbänden as a whole. And yes, exactly, the original (at least in snippets I have seen) gives them simply as "Jagd", "Zerstoerer", "Kampf", and so on, which at this time is identical with single-engine fighters, twin-engine fighters, bombers, and so on. Nachtjagd was just that though, since it was an evolutionary arm at the time...but that is moot anyway, because the evidence is that IV./JG2 kept its single-engine fighters for just a "week or so" :D after they began conversion to Nachtjagd...and then later transitioned to Bf 110 Nachtjagd. Unfortunately, after a pretty thorough search of the Jagd organizational changes, I can't find another such Jagd to Nachtjagd conversion in this period. So "some JG units" is actually "one JG unit" of three Staffeln. The idea that a single Gruppe would materially skew the figures isn't really supportable.

BTW, also yes, the drop in operational pilot strength during the holidays supports the idea that the "limited duty" category is pretty wide-ranging and likely included crews on holiday leave, just as in Heer reports. I suspect that "limited duty" is actually a mistranslation/contraction of "Kranke, Verwundete, und Urlaube" or some such in the original.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Kurfürst » 27 May 2015 13:57

IIRC there were a couple of Gruppen that were disbanded, merged, split etc - but I am not feeling like investigating and cross-referencing the usual crazy history of 'what JG become what before it become the same JG again and then disbanded and dispersed amongst other JGs'.

In any case I agree it effects more the ZG strenght returns, since IIRC about cca. half of those 'disappeared' and the same planes and pilots took up an NJG disguise to hide from statistical analysis...

Long story short, just looking at quarterly strength returns does not always give the full story. ;)

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 27 May 2015 15:44

Kurfürst wrote:IIRC there were a couple of Gruppen that were disbanded, merged, split etc - but I am not feeling like investigating and cross-referencing the usual crazy history of 'what JG become what before it become the same JG again and then disbanded and dispersed amongst other JGs'.


:lol:

In any case I agree it effects more the ZG strenght returns, since IIRC about cca. half of those 'disappeared' and the same planes and pilots took up an NJG disguise to hide from statistical analysis...


Yes, it is interesting that each of the Staffel in IV./JG2 were originally intended as Nachtjagd with Bf 109D and Ar 68 and each had a different origin. In that sense I suspect that they were rolled into NJG1 to provide experience in night operations for the guys from the ZG who made up the bulk of the new outfit. However, it was a while before they all transferred from ZG to NJG...IIRC it was around the end of 1942 that the final transitions were made?

Long story short, just looking at quarterly strength returns does not always give the full story. ;)


No of course not, but unfortunately we don't have the Flugzeugbestände und Bewegungsmeldungen prior to March 1942, which would give greater fidelity by unit and month. Nor has Michael ever posted the Einsatzbereitschaft der Fliegende Verbände on his site or the remainder of the Übersicht über Soll, Istbestand, Einsatzbereitschaft, Verluste und Reserven der fliegenden Verbänden, which also might help (assuming they are not actually one and the same). However, I did just have an "ah-ha!" moment and realized that I can order HRA 137.306-14 on microfilm from Maxwell and so get the complete set of Übersicht über Soll, Istbestand, Einsatzbereitschaft, Verluste und Reserven der fliegenden Verbänden that way...I've only been looking for a source for about the last ten years (I was never able to locate a copy in the U.S. NA). :roll: :oops: :roll:

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 24 Jun 2015 23:08

Kurfürst wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:To be precise, Übersicht über Soll, Istbestand, Einsatzbereitschaft, Verluste und Reserven der fliegenden Verbände, RL 2 III/700, states that as of 28 June there were 1,309 single-engine fighter pilots assigned against an establishment of 1,398, and of those 1,089 were ready for operations and 82 were on light duty. As of 27 September the number assigned had increased to 1,452 against an establishment of 1,450, but those ready had fallen to 994 with 334 on light duty.

So there were actually 143 more available, but 95 fewer ready for operations.


The numbers are for Tagjagd only, ie. day fight

Kurfürst wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:
Kurfürst wrote:The numbers are for Tagjagd only, ie. day fighters.


Sure. I don't believe there were any single-engine Nachtjagd at this time.


RichTO90 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:Wonder what exact "week or so" you mean?


The three Staeffeln of IV./JG2 became II./NJG1 on 22 June 1940 and then were renamed III./NJG1 on 1 July 1940, they began converting to the Bf110 in August. They do not appear to have been operational during that time, but were in training, first at Amsterdam-Schipol and then at Düsseldorf.
Unsourced claims "appear" not to weight that much at this type of forum,

RichTO90 wrote:
Well, AFAIK they belonged to night fighter unit(s).


Which, of course, has nothing to do with the contention of the original poster that the numbers of aircraft and pilots as given in the quarterly muster of the Luftwaffe somehow concealed the "real" figures of single-engine fighters and pilots available. Nor, of course, does it have anything to do with my response.

Cheers!

Rich
Planes and unit personel, of course, form vital part of a unit

Regards, Juha

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 25 Jun 2015 02:13

Juha Tompuri wrote: Unsourced claims "appear" not to weight that much at this type of forum,


http://www.ww2.dk/

I looked. I suggest you do the same.

Planes and unit personel, of course, form vital part of a unit

Regards, Juha


You got me there. I never would have thought they did.

Brgds

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 27 Jun 2015 20:35

RichTO90 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Unsourced claims "appear" not to weight that much at this type of forum,


http://www.ww2.dk/

I looked.
Seems to be the site that I pointed out to you earlier: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=182805&start=105#p1946393
Well done.

RichTO90 wrote: I suggest you do the same.
Actually I have done it already earlier.
And even more than you have mentioned to have done, and that is what I dare to suggest to you too.
As there are couple of things at your claims, I can't find verification from there.

RichTO90 wrote:
Planes and unit personel, of course, form vital part of a unit

Regards, Juha


You got me there. I never would have thought they did.
Glad to be of a help.
Yes, at Nachtjagd, single engine planes and single-engine fighter pilots existed at night fighter unit(s)

Regards, Juha

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 28 Jun 2015 00:48

Juha Tompuri wrote: Seems to be the site that I pointed out to you earlier: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=182805&start=105#p1946393
Well done.


Michael Holm's site? Yes, the one I've been using for about 15 years now. Glad you were able to find it too.

Actually I have done it already earlier.
And even more than you have mentioned to have done, and that is what I dare to suggest to you too.
As there are couple of things at your claims, I can't find verification from there.


Instead of practicing at being insufferable - you don't need to since you have it down to a fine art already - why don't you point out what things I claim that you can't verify?

Glad to be of a help.
Yes, at Nachtjagd, single engine planes and single-engine fighter pilots existed at night fighter unit(s)

Regards, Juha


Damn, you are the genius of the bleeding obvious aren't you?

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 01 Jul 2015 20:32

RichTO90 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Seems to be the site that I pointed out to you earlier: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=182805&start=105#p1946393
Well done.


Michael Holm's site? Yes, the one I've been using for about 15 years now. Glad you were able to find it too.
Yep, it's possible that you have looked/used the site longer than I have been using it, and so you being more aware about the whole content.

RichTO90 wrote:
Actually I have done it already earlier.
And even more than you have mentioned to have done, and that is what I dare to suggest to you too.
As there are couple of things at your claims, I can't find verification from there.


Instead of practicing at being insufferable - you don't need to since you have it down to a fine art already - why don't you point out what things I claim that you can't verify?
Actually the question is not about my verifications, and I hate to repeat myself, but from where, at your mentioned
http://www.ww2.dk/ these kind of info originates?
... I don't believe there were...

...They do not appear to have been,,,
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=182805&start=120#p1952836

Must admit that I have not been able to find such info there.
Maybe you with your greater expertise at that site can help us?

RichTO90 wrote:
Glad to be of a help.
Yes, at Nachtjagd, single engine planes and single-engine fighter pilots existed at night fighter unit(s)

Regards, Juha


Damn, you are the genius of the bleeding obvious aren't you?
Actually I don't claim to be of a genius of any type. Not even the your mentioned one.
Just interested in history.
And facts.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 01 Jul 2015 22:07

Juha Tompuri wrote:
... I don't believe there were...

...They do not appear to have been,,,


Must admit that I have not been able to find such info there.


Huh? What "info"? Could you be any more obtuse? Are you referring to my statement "Sure. I don't believe there were any single-engine Nachtjagd at this time."? If so, then say so. Then you might also wish to acknowledge I corrected my statement some six hours and twenty-four minutes before your post, in the interesting conversation I was having with Kurfürst.

As for the second statement I made "They do not appear to have been operational during that time, but were in training, first at Amsterdam-Schipol and then at Düsseldorf", it is my assessment, based upon my reading of the situation. For example, the fact that II./NJG1 was created from the three Nachtjagd Staffeln of IV./JG2, in turn formed from the three independent Staffeln from JG2, JG26, and JG27 on 3 February 1940. Given they were at Amsterdam Schipol as a unit for all of nine days before moving to Düsseldorf for re-equipping with Ju 88 and given before that their hodge-podge of Bf 109D and Ar 69E equipment, I would question their operational status then.

You are welcome to argue the opposite, with "such info" you are able to find there or anywhere else.

Maybe you with your greater expertise at that site can help us?


Maybe you with your great experience as Forum Staff can ask clear and constructive questions instead of expecting others to read your mind.

Actually I don't claim to be of a genius of any type. Not even the your mentioned one.
Just interested in history.
And facts.

Regards, Juha


Really? Then bring some into play and add to the interest.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 01 Jul 2015 23:20

RichTO90 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
... I don't believe there were...

...They do not appear to have been,,,


Must admit that I have not been able to find such info there.


Huh? What "info"? Could you be any more obtuse? Are you referring to my statement "Sure. I don't believe there were any single-engine Nachtjagd at this time."? If so, then say so.
That I did not find at the site you mentioned.

RichTO90 wrote:Then you might also wish to acknowledge I corrected my statement some six hours and twenty-four minutes before your post, in the interesting conversation I was having with Kurfürst.
Could you be more precise?

RichTO90 wrote:As for the second statement I made "They do not appear to have been operational during that time, but were in training, first at Amsterdam-Schipol and then at Düsseldorf", it is my assessment, based upon my reading of the situation. For example, the fact that II./NJG1 was created from the three Nachtjagd Staffeln of IV./JG2, in turn formed from the three independent Staffeln from JG2, JG26, and JG27 on 3 February 1940. Given they were at Amsterdam Schipol as a unit for all of nine days before moving to Düsseldorf for re-equipping with Ju 88 and given before that their hodge-podge of Bf 109D and Ar 69E equipment, I would question their operational status then.
Can you give us from where to look from the...
RichTO90 wrote:http://www.ww2.dk/

I looked. I suggest you do the same.

... the exact date the night fighter unit night fighters were turned to trainers and when their night fighter pilots turned to students ?



RichTO90 wrote:
Actually I don't claim to be of a genius of any type. Not even the your mentioned one.
Just interested in history.
And facts.

Regards, Juha


Really? Then bring some into play and add to the interest.
I'm just after info posted at this thread in general, and if it is fact based or just beliefs and/or things that appear to be so or so.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 01 Jul 2015 23:35

Juha Tompuri wrote: Could you be more precise?


viewtopic.php?p=1947785#p1947785

I also mentioned I was aware of the "single engine Nachtjagd" viewtopic.php?p=1947769#p1947769

And directly to you even earlier in two posts viewtopic.php?p=1947442#p1947442 and viewtopic.php?p=1946395#p1946395

Are you blind? Forgetful? Or simply insufferable?

... the exact date the night fighter unit night fighters were turned to trainers and when their night fighter pilots turned to students ?


No, instead, why don't you build an even bigger straw man and stuff it.

I'm just after info posted at this thread in general, and if it is fact based or just beliefs and/or things that appear to be so or so.

Regards, Juha


Odd, when posters state "I believe" then I tend to believe it is their belief. I suspect that when I say I believe something that other posters are aware that is my belief as well.

I also believe that you are continuing your harassing in your guise of "Forum Staff", because you got bent out of shape over "about a week", which was in fact nine days.


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