Luftwaffe vs RAF

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 02 Jul 2015 00:04

RichTO90 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Could you be more precise?


viewtopic.php?p=1947785#p1947785

I also mentioned I was aware of the "single engine Nachtjagd" viewtopic.php?p=1947769#p1947769

And directly to you even earlier in two posts viewtopic.php?p=1947442#p1947442 and viewtopic.php?p=1946395#p1946395

Are you blind? Forgetful? Or simply insufferable?
I have not questioned your awareness of the single engine night fighters, but the claim of yours
RichTO90 wrote:Sure. I don't believe there were any single-engine Nachtjagd at this time.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=182805&start=105#p1945880

RichTO90 wrote:
... the exact date the night fighter unit night fighters were turned to trainers and when their night fighter pilots turned to students ?


No, instead, why don't you build an even bigger straw man and stuff it.
As above, your claim = your proof

RichTO90 wrote:
I'm just after info posted at this thread in general, and if it is fact based or just beliefs and/or things that appear to be so or so.

Regards, Juha


Odd, when posters state "I believe" then I tend to believe it is their belief. I suspect that when I say I believe something that other posters are aware that is my belief as well.

I also believe that you are continuing your harassing in your guise of "Forum Staff", because you got bent out of shape over "about a week", which was in fact nine days.
No, just after facts

Regards, Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 02 Jul 2015 00:15

RichTO90 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:Wonder what exact "week or so" you mean?


The three Staeffeln of IV./JG2 became II./NJG1 on 22 June 1940 and then were renamed III./NJG1 on 1 July 1940, they began converting to the Bf 110 in August. They do not appear to have been operational during that time, but were in training, first at Amsterdam-Schipol and then at Düsseldorf.
...or was it really so?
When the conversion in reality took place?
Dates?

You sure knew this beforehand, but anyway:
Prien says the following about 10./NJG 1:

Quote:
Formed August 1940 (possibly at Düsseldorf) with Bf 109Es left over after III./NJG 1 began converting to the Bf 110. As a single-engine night fighter Staffel, it transferred to Holland in October 1940 and merged with 11./NJG 1 to form Jagdstaffel Holland. On 6 October 1940, 10./NJG 1 reported a Bf 110 E-1 belonging to it crashing while attempting to take off from Vlissingen/Holland.
[Source: Prien, Jagdgeschwader 1/11, pages 19-20].
Ten years after Dr. Prien wrote the above in 1993, our own Jaap Woortman supplemented and corrected Prien’s information with the following:

Quote:
On or about 7 September 1940, personnel from Stab III./NJG 1 and 7./NJG 1 left Eindhoven with their Bf 109Ds for the conversion to Bf 110s. This unit was the former IV.(N)/JG 2 and II./NJG 1 from July 1940. Not everyone was suitable for night-flying in multi-engine aircraft, so the pilots with insufficient training assembled with their Bf 109s at Souburg, close to Flushing/Holland. The name of this assemblage of pilots became 10./NJG 1 because Staffeln 1.-9./NJG 1 already existed. Once training began at Souburg, they flew the first Dämmerung-Nachtjagd trials under the technical guidance of Dr. J.A. Schraeder, the fighters having been outfitted with special equipment. The radar unit provided for this was a Freya set belonging to Luftgau-Nachr.Rgt. 6 at Domburg, which was only a short distance from Souburg. According to the postwar recollections of Dr. Schraeder, these trials were not successful. In December 1940 10./NJG 1 was renamed 1./JG 1.
[Source: Woortman, Jaap – posted on 12 O’Clock High web site, 28 March 2004].
So what happened next? A new Staffel was set up in December 1940 to take the place of the former 10./NJG 1. It was named Geschwader-Ergänzungsstaffel/NJG 1 and was the former Versuchsnachtjagdstaffel after the latter had converted from Bf 109s to Bf 110s. Some 9 months later, when the Ergänzungsgruppe/NJG 1 was set up, the Geschw.Erg.St./NJG 1 was renamed 10./NJG 1 and became part of the new Erg.Gr.

There still seem to be some minor inconsistencies between the Prien and Woortman accounts, but I’ll leave it to them to iron these out.

Larry
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=17773

Regards, Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 02 Jul 2015 00:33

RichTO90 wrote: you got bent out of shape over "about a week", which was in fact nine days
Was it "about a week"/ nine days in fact (= sourced fact based)?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 02 Jul 2015 03:15

Juha Tompuri wrote:
RichTO90 wrote: you got bent out of shape over "about a week", which was in fact nine days
Was it "about a week"/ nine days in fact (= sourced fact based)?

Regards, Juha


What is 22 June to 1 July?

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 02 Jul 2015 03:17

Juha Tompuri wrote: No, just after facts

Regards, Juha


Goodbye,

Kurfürst
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Kurfürst » 02 Jul 2015 13:23

Clear-cut case of harassment, it would appear.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby RichTO90 » 02 Jul 2015 13:45

Kurfürst wrote:Clear-cut case of harassment, it would appear.


Thanks Kurfürst,

While we have argued in the past, I have always been impressed by your knowledge and honesty. Juha on the other hand makes AHF a travesty. He displays little actual knowledge, likes to make up "facts", loves to harass posters, and hides under his "Forum Staff" label. I've protested his conduct in this thread numerous times without a word of response from "Forum Staff". As of now, I am waiting Markus Wendel's action on my request to have my account terminated, along with the posts I have made to date. So much for being a "Member of the Month". :roll:

Cheers!

Rich Anderson

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Juha Tompuri » 02 Jul 2015 15:16

Kurfürst wrote:Clear-cut case of harassment, it would appear.
No.
Just find the RichTO90 statement about the existence of the single engine night fighters during/between the mentioned
time ( 28th June - 27th September 1940) a bit questionable:

Kurfürst wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:
Sid Guttridge wrote:"In July – September the number of Luftwaffe pilots available fell by 136, but the number of operational pilots had shrunk by 171 by September."


To be precise, Übersicht über Soll, Istbestand, Einsatzbereitschaft, Verluste und Reserven der fliegenden Verbänden, RL 2 III/700, states that as of 28 June there were 1,309 single-engine fighter pilots assigned against an establishment of 1,398, and of those 1,089 were ready for operations and 82 were on light duty. As of 27 September the number assigned had increased to 1,452 against an establishment of 1,450, but those ready had fallen to 994 with 334 on light duty.

So there were actually 143 more available, but 95 fewer ready for operations.


The numbers are for Tagjagd only, ie. day fighters.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=182805&start=105#p1945616

RichTO90 wrote:
Kurfürst wrote:The numbers are for Tagjagd only, ie. day fighters.


Sure. I don't believe there were any single-engine Nachtjagd at this time.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=182805&start=105#p1945880

Regards, Juha

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Urmel
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Urmel » 03 Jul 2015 06:38

Kurfürst wrote:Clear-cut case of harassment, it would appear.


I agree.
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby David Thompson » 03 Jul 2015 13:31

Let's get back on topic, gentlemen.

ivanlazic
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby ivanlazic » 03 Aug 2015 10:25

Dear All,

Marcus Wendel very kindly directed me onto this forum. I have to confess I am new to this forum so if this kind of request is unacceptable or inappropriate then please do say so, and I will delete the request. However, I do hope you can help!

My name is Ivan and I am an Assistant Producer at Arrow Media, based in London in the UK. Arrow International Media Limited (“Arrow”) has been commissioned by Channel 4 to make ‘Battle of Britain 2015’ (provisional/working title), a unique two-part television event marking the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Britain. The first part is a feature-length documentary telling the human stories behind the campaign and, in particular, Battle of Britain Day. The second part is an as-live event covering one of the most ambitious aviation celebrations in British history - the South of England Flypast on 15th September 2015 which is being arranged by Boultbee Flight Academy.

A large part of our programme will be based on the Supermarine Spitfire and its role not just in the Battle of Britain, but in the Second World War as a whole. As part of our 90 minute documentary, we are very keen on making a short film about the comparison between Spitfires and Messerschmitts, their differences and their similarities. We’ll be speaking to a number of ex-RAF pilots who flew Spitfires both during the Battle of Britain but also during the Second World War in general.

As much of a longshot as it might be, we would really like to get in touch with German ex-pilots who flew Messerschmitts during the war, to talk about their experiences in flying the planes. I am having a hard time finding out who is still around today who flew the Messerschmitt during WWII.

Would you know of any Messerschmitt veterans who are still with us, and might you be in touch with any? At this point in time it does not matter to us if they flew during the Battle of Britain or not – as long as they were part of the Luftwaffe and flew Messerschmitts then I would be very keen on speaking to them.

Please do let me know if you can help. Any assistance would be extremely appreciated. Please feel free to directly message me privately to take this further. Alternatively, my email address is ivan.lazic@arrowmedia.com so please do send me an email if you prefer.

Thank you very much,
Ivan

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby steverodgers801 » 03 Aug 2015 20:23

in Wikipedia there was a Gemeinschaft der Jagdfleiger listed as an organization. translation fighter pilot association, I would start with them

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sitalkes
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby sitalkes » 04 Aug 2015 02:47

I would suggest contacting John Vasco, author of Messerschmitt Bf 110: Bombsights Over England: Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain. He seems to know the Luftwaffe pilots or their associations pretty well if his book is anything to go by.

By the way, my reaction to your film would be "yawn... not another one!" Why not one featuring the hurrricane, or better still, the view from the other side?

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Sheldrake
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby Sheldrake » 04 Aug 2015 08:31

Or how about the untold story, the role of Bomber command in the batle of Britian. Did you know that as many RAF airmen were lost flying bombers in the Battle of britian than fighter pilots? Their names aren't on a role of hon our. They weren't singled out as 2the few" but day after day and night after night they attacked the luftwaffe bases and the channel ports to hamper thewgerman preperations to invade.

There were very dangerous and risky missions. Their aircraft were under armed and slow. The losses wwere traumatic.

On 15th may 1940 eleven aircraft of No 82 Sqn flying Bristol Bleheim aircraft took off from Norfolk to attack a German armoured column somewhere near Namaur. None came back. something like 21 out of 27 men lost their lives.A dozen widowed wives evicted/resettled from the marries d quarters that were their family homes. The squadron was reformed.

Three months later 15th (?) August another dozen aircraft from the squadron were sent to make a low level raid on Aalboorg airfield in Denmark. I thin k the only survivor was an aircraft which turned back early with engine trouble. Tell the story of "Paddy" the Earl of Bandon the larger than life character who was station commander and responsible for tyhe human side of rebuilding this squadron and others of No 2 Group.

This is atpory which has not been on the TV before and deserved to be told rather than an unimaginative ho hum of spitfires v messerscmitts.

I used to know Alfred Price and Chris Shores who had contacts with German pilots. Drop a PM to me and I will see what I can do. You should also try Ross Mahoney of the RAF Museum and Seb Cox at the RAF Historical section.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Postby 4thskorpion » 04 Aug 2015 10:39

stg 44 wrote:Sid the standards of the Polish air forces pilots was very high due to the limited number of aircraft that were available, so they were extremely well trained and of the highest quality in terms of education and talent. When finally given a chance to fight in modern aircraft at or near the quality of the Bf109, then they performed very well, probably much better than the Brits themselves, who seem to have neglected training fighter pilots in operational tactics. When couple with the fact that they already had faced the LW in combat in their own country, were extremely motivated to fight, and had the full backing of the British logistical and radar/CiC system they were at a distinct advantage over anyone fighting, British or German, except perhaps for the Czechs, who had all the same advantages except for recent combat experience in their own country. I don't know if we would say they were better than anyone else man for man, though by dint of being the best of the best their country had to offer in terms of pilots, then yes probably they and the Czechs were the best flyers in the fight on average. If the same were done with Germany or Britain, taking their best pilots and concentrating them with all the advantages that the Brits had during the BoB, then they too would excel on average compared to the majority of the flyers in the fight.


303-Kosciuszko-Squadron.png

One hundred twenty-six victories—the official score of Polish Air Force 303 ‘Kościuszko’ Squadron in the Battle of Britain, making it the highest scoring RAF squadron during the battle. Of the 126 victories the Polish pilots of 303 Squadron claimed 93, its two British and Canadian born pilots; Forbes, Kellett and Kent claimed 16; its one Czech pilot, Josef František, claimed 17.

303-Squadron-trophy.jpg

From the left: Bienkowski and Zumbach with the 303 ‘Kościuszko’ Squadron trophy—a tail section of a Junkers 88 downed in January 1942. It was the 178th German aircraft destroyed by the squadron.
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