Luftwaffe vs RAF

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
ivanlazic
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by ivanlazic » 07 Aug 2015 09:46

Thank you for your responses, all - they've been very helpful. I'll pass the information onto my producers for consideration - we have indeed been looking at Bomber Command as another story so hopefully we can do something on that.

I take your other comments on board. At this stage the films and specific topics haven't been finalised, but we are also thinking of looking at other planes too. Just to be clear, our programme isn't *just* about the Spitfire! That would be really one-sided. But I'll be honest, there is a section which will focus on it.

sitalkes (and anyone else for that matter) - I don't suppose you have John Vasco's contact details? It would be great to speak to him further.

Thanks again - this is all much appreciated.

Rescue193
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by Rescue193 » 06 Dec 2016 18:02

The point about the loss ratios between RAF vs Luftwaffe and fighter vs fighter in the BoB is interesting.

Obviously the RAF's primary goal was to prevent the bombers from reaching their targets (and the best way to do that was to shoot them down) and/or break-up their formations to disrupt and reduce the effectiveness of any particular raid. The Hurricanes (which formed the bulk of RAF Fighter Command and 11 Group assets anyway) tended to be tasked with intercepting the bombers. The effort devoted to counter the fighters covering the bombers was of secondary importance and tended, certainly in the later stages of the battle, to be handed to Spitfires which could meet the BF109s on more-or-less equal terms, although the Bf109s were generally able to engage with tactical advantage of height and speed.

At the risk of making a few sweeping generalisations German fighter pilots tended to have more hours on type, more combat experience, were better shots and German tactics were, until later on in the battle and the RAF began to catch-up, far superior. The relative merits of the Spit and the 109 have been much discussed and my gut feeling about it is that, probably, it was the relative skills, abilities and experience of the pilots in the cockpits that was more likely to decide the outcome of an engagement rather than performance the aeroplanes they were flying.

I remember, from many years ago, hearing an RAeS Historical Branch lecture where the speaker analysed, compared and contrasted, the 'weight of broadside' - i.e. the amount of lead it could throw at a target - of a Mk1A Spit vs the Bf109E. Surprisingly (at least to me) they were virtually the same but the telling point was that the 'broadside' of the 109 was much more concentrated. In other words, a Spitfire might hit a Messerschmitt but escape but if the Messerschmitt hit a Spitfire the latter was more likely to be shot down. I throw that in to the pot just to let it simmer and see what thoughts and reactions it might provoke.

The other point in the debate that I think might be relevant is that, whereas the RAF had both bombers and fighters to shoot at, apart from the odd Defiant or Blenheim unlucky enough to wander into an engagement, the Luftwaffe (bombers and fighters) were only shooting at fighters and that must have some bearing on the numbers shot down.

(Oh! Are Me110 losses counted as downed fighters?)

Dupplin Muir
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by Dupplin Muir » 28 Dec 2016 16:48

One problem with comparing losses between different air-forces is that they used different conventions. In the Luftwaffe (and the USAAF and USN) the attitude was 'We will assume all missing aircraft were lost to flak or non-combat causes, unless we have good reason to believe otherwise'. In the RAF, by contrast, the approach was 'We will assume all missing aircraft were lost in air combat unless we have good reason to believe otherwise'. This naturally led to the Germans seriously understating losses to enemy fighters, and the British seriously overestimating such losses. As a rule-of-thumb I usually increase German air-combat losses by 50% and reduce British losses by 25% before making such comparisons.

Secondly, research into Ultra intercepts (notably by the excellent Nick Beale) is demonstrating that the official German loss-lists are far from complete. On one occasion during the Battle of Britain, 54 Squadron clashed with JG26, claiming six 109's. The official records only include two losses, but intercepts show that the Germans lost at least four fighters, and possibly the whole six. Similarly, on Adlertag, the official records claim that I/KG54 lost two Ju88's and II/KG54 another two - but Ultra shows that actually I/KG54 lost four aircraft and II/KG54 lost three. Some people set up a strawman by claiming that the Germans could not under-report losses because they wouldn't get replacements, but this is assuming that the Luftwaffe used the same system as the RAF. In reality, the system for reporting losses in the Luftwaffe, and the system for obtaining replacements had become 'decoupled' and units could obtain new aircraft without having to detail losses. Indeed, in another Ultra intercept, JG2 were rebuked for doing precisely this.

Lastly, Polish pilots tended to overclaim more than their RAF colleagues. One Polish historian showed that the Polish squadron which was allegedly the top-scoring unit during the BoB would drop to eighth place, even if you assumed that they had shot down every aircraft they might have shot down. The problem is that people get fixated on one thing and don't want to share credit - Don Caldwell did much the same with JG26: assuming all claims by 'his' unit were accurate and all the over-claiming was being done by other units.

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wbell
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by wbell » 29 Nov 2017 18:08

Rescue193 wrote: ... The relative merits of the Spit and the 109 have been much discussed and my gut feeling about it is that, probably, it was the relative skills, abilities and experience of the pilots in the cockpits that was more likely to decide the outcome of an engagement rather than performance the aeroplanes they were flying.

...In other words, a Spitfire might hit a Messerschmitt but escape but if the Messerschmitt hit a Spitfire the latter was more likely to be shot down. I throw that in to the pot just to let it simmer and see what thoughts and reactions it might provoke.
Not to get off topic, but I did want to touch on your statement. I agree with your assessment, however it would largely depend on the combat experience of the Pilot in single combat. Other major factors would include:

1. Initial position of each aircraft at the time of engagement;
2. Fuel and ammunition available at the time of engagement; and
3. Altitude at time of engagement.

The ME109E was an excellent aircraft. If I recall correctly (I can dig-up the references if you'd like them), the ME109E had a faster roll & dive rate than the Spitfire. On the otherhand, the Spitfire Mk1 had the edge on turn radius, climb rate and service ceiling. The Spitfire also was a bit faster. The ME109E was fuel injected, so its performance under a negative G load would be better, as the Mk1 was carburated. Generally speaking, The aerobatics of the Spitfire are superior to the ME109, but again it comes down to the factors already mentioned.

Armament on the Mk1 was 8 browning 7.72mm/0.308 that fired at 350 rpm. The ME109E had 2 7.62's at 1200 rpm and 2 20mm at 540 rpm. Clearly there was an anvantage for the ME109E. Later model Spitfires incorporated the 20 mm, but if the comparison is the Mk1, clearly the ME109E would have an advantage (although 8 7.62mm machine guns could get the job done fairly efficiently). :)

I've had an opportunity to fly a Mk9 Spitfire (viewtopic.php?f=22&t=231538 ), but haven't done so with a 109 so I can't compare through personal experience. The Spitfire was however impressive. Although I was very inexperienced with this aircraft, it was quick to respond and easy to control at altitude.

I'm aware that pinion has not much of a place on this site. However after consideration and given the choice, I'd be flying the Spitfire...

paulrward
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by paulrward » 29 Nov 2017 20:15

Hello All ;

To Mr. W Bell :

The rate of fire of the Browning Mk !! .303 was on the order of 1000 - 1150 rpm cyclic -
about three to four times your quoted rate of 300 rpm. Now, each Spitfire carried 300 rounds
per gun, which was 2400 rounds, which could be spat out in about 17 seconds.

Not so much of an advantage for the Me 109, is there ?

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward

PS- the quoted figure of 300 rpm for a .303 Browning is for a gun synchronized to fire through the propeller arc. Like in The Great War......

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wbell
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by wbell » 29 Nov 2017 21:36

paulrward wrote: The rate of fire of the Browning Mk !! .303 was on the order of 1000 - 1150 rpm cyclic -
about three to four times your quoted rate of 300 rpm. Now, each Spitfire carried 300 rounds
per gun, which was 2400 rounds, which could be spat out in about 17 seconds. ... Not so much of an advantage for the Me 109, is there ?
Thanks Paul, your correct. The A Wing Spitfire (designated in 1940) carried 300 rounds of ammunition per gun. I was going by recollection and confused the ammunition capacity for the rate of fire.

I believe that the 109 had 1000 rounds of 7.62 mm ammunition per gun (?). The 109s advantage was the 20mm gun. I understand that it only held 60 rounds, but it was devastating. That was the advantage I was referring to.

The B Wing (1941) designation came out with two 20mm cannons and four 7.62mm machine guns. It was felt that as armor was being added for pilot protection, that more firepower was required. Further improvements were made in the C, D, E and Mk21 wing configurations.

Sorry for the confusion, my mistake. [Reference: "http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/we ... wings.html]

eric_tull
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by eric_tull » 29 Dec 2017 12:11

phylo_roadking wrote:Imad - pick up a copy of Patrick Bishop's Battle of Britain:Day-By-Day Chronology. There you can trace the evolution of the 1940 air battle...

And you'll see some stange things; specifically, that the RAF didn't actually do so well for a number of reasons in the first part of the battle. A combination of outmoded tactics, fighters based too close to the coast (no time to gain an altitude advantage), being jumped by free-hunting LW fighters, and sheer mistakes - such as intruding (fatally) into the box formation of Dorniers on two occasions when they'd been ordered not to...meant that in the early weeks of the air battle - July and the first part of August - the LW comes out ahead of the RAF!
This is an excellent book. No flag waving just the facts as they happened. And yes in July and early august the Luftwaffe came out on top.

gracie4241
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by gracie4241 » 04 Aug 2018 16:36

As I just joined I apologize for any (unintended) redundancies. I have noted myself the apparent fact that the British lost more fighters than the germans did. The number I recall was july-october 1000 british v 600 german- i'm sure various numbers are floating around,I believe that is also true over Western Europe 1941-42 and in North Africa until late 42.My point is how VASTLY different that is(whatever the exact numbers) from the public perception, From watching movies the Spitfires shoot down Me-109's like clubbing baby seals, and the idolatry of the Spitfire (1940-41)is such that it is a given that it was MUCH SUPERIOR to the ME-109.Whenever I question that in WW2 chit chat people look at me as if I just landed from mars.My research indicates that they were very comparable(the F version was superior I think to the spitfire) and indeed the circumstance and pilot skill were critical. Nice to know I wasn't hallucinating

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Smokey Stover
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by Smokey Stover » 29 Aug 2018 15:23

Sid Guttridge wrote:
22 Nov 2011 16:34
Hi Imad,

However, if one looks at British fighter losses over France on "Rhubarbs" in the following years, it is seems clear that German fighter pilots still held a qualitative advantage in 1941-42.
I disagree completely. If you research RAF pilots who went on those hit and run "rhubarb" missions were very critical about just how effective they were. Poorly planned and dangerously executed by domineering ego inflated squadron leaders such as Douglas Bader. I have seen interviews of pilots in Baders group that said he was totally reckless and only interested in his own tally (fighter kills). He put many novice pilots in a position where they were very vunerable due to his gung ho attitude. And indeed Bader was eventually shot down over France after failing to notice or except radio warnings of enemy fighters approaching. And of course all the problems the Luftwaffe suffered flying over the channel to England were now becoming problems for the RAF flying raids on France. But to say that the Luftwaffe still had superior aircraft in 41/42 is highly debatable. Imo....

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stg 44
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by stg 44 » 29 Aug 2018 22:09

Smokey Stover wrote:
29 Aug 2018 15:23
I disagree completely. If you research RAF pilots who went on those hit and run "rhubarb" missions were very critical about just how effective they were. Poorly planned and dangerously executed by domineering ego inflated squadron leaders such as Douglas Bader. I have seen interviews of pilots in Baders group that said he was totally reckless and only interested in his own tally (fighter kills). He put many novice pilots in a position where they were very vunerable due to his gung ho attitude. And indeed Bader was eventually shot down over France after failing to notice or except radio warnings of enemy fighters approaching. And of course all the problems the Luftwaffe suffered flying over the channel to England were now becoming problems for the RAF flying raids on France. But to say that the Luftwaffe still had superior aircraft in 41/42 is highly debatable. Imo....
In 1942 the RAF had a collective freak out over the FW190 and rushed a response, as the Spitfire V was falling victim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermari ... (type_361)
In the early months of 1942, with the clear superiority of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 over the Spitfire VB, there was much pressure to get Spitfires into production using the new two-stage supercharged Merlin 61 engine. In September 1941 the Spitfire Mk III prototype N3297 had been converted by Rolls-Royce at their Hucknall plant to take a Merlin 60, which had been specifically designed for use in the Wellington Mk VI high altitude bomber.

The performance increase was described by Jeffrey Quill as a "quantum leap" over that of the Mk VB and another Spitfire airframe, R6700 was modified to take the new engine. Although design work on the Mk VII and VIII series was under way, these would take over a year to get into production and a counter to the Fw 190 was urgently needed. The Air Ministry made the decision that Mk VC airframes should be converted to take the more powerful engine and, as a result, many of the early IXs were converted Mk VCs which did not have any of the refinements which later appeared.

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Smokey Stover
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

Post by Smokey Stover » 30 Aug 2018 14:43

I knew you were going to say that.... And for about 2 or 3 months during 1941 you are right. Everyone always trumpets how until the Spitfire lX came into production the Fw 190 rained supreme. But the truth is the German 190 pilots were not fazed by the Spitfire lX when it arrived in numbers. If a Spitfire got behind a 190 the Germans would simply dive away at speed. The real problem however was the introduction of the Hawker Typhoon. If you asked German pilots about what British aircraft they feared the most, many would say the Typhoon + Tempest. The Typhoon was so fast and so heavy that 190 pilots could not outdive them. And many 190 pilots found this out the hard way. After the Typhoon had its initial gremlins ironed out it was just as effective in its introduction as was the 190. Also it has to be noted as with any new aircraft, dogfighting tactics had to be learned and adapted accordingly. This was why captured enemy aircraft evaluation tests were so important. To find out an aircrafts strengths and weaknesses. The Spitfire was a superb fighter all through the war. But its psychological impact was highly overrated. Just as many allied pilots suffered from 190 mania! Sometimes just the sight of an enemy aircraft was enough to give pilots a false sense of fear. The 190 scourge didnt stop just because of the Spitfire lX. Even if it was designed to combat that aircraft. And besides, almost every German pilot i have heard speak about aerial combat with the British stated the last thing they wanted to see behind them was a Tempest. The Typhoon was almost as good. Maybe not as fast or agile as the Tempest but it could still fight. A good comparison is the P-51 & P-47. Both aircraft were more than capable dogfighters, its just one of them was considered more glamorous, therefore better. Which isnt always the case.

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