Luftwaffe vs RAF

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
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bf109 emil
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#46

Post by bf109 emil » 26 Jan 2012, 20:46

Also I wonder if, had the Munich Crisis led to war in October 1938, whether at that time the RAF would have sent only Gladiators to France, while keeping all their (very new) Hurricanes and Spitfires in Britain.
IMHO not if Dowding, whom was pushing Chamberlain for appeasement in 1938 so as to ready his RAF for a conflict he felt was forth coming had any say. :lol: maybe gladiators or perhaps Boulton Paul Defiant turret fighters...then again if Germany was combating Czechoslovakia, IMHO more RAF bombers would have been sent in an offensive effort then to defend against what might be a minimal LW threat in the west at this time.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#47

Post by phylo_roadking » 26 Jan 2012, 20:53

IMHO not if Dowding, whom was pushing Chamberlain for appeasement in 1938 so as to ready his RAF for a conflict he felt was forth coming had any say.
then again if Germany was combating Czechoslovakia, IMHO more RAF bombers would have been sent in an offensive effort then to defend against what might be a minimal LW threat in the west at this time

That's NOT how it was viewed at the time - both the British and French were of the opinion the GERMANS had the superior numbers! And Dowding??? The British problem in 1938 wasn't just Fighter Command - it was more Bomber Command - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1663581
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#48

Post by bf109 emil » 26 Jan 2012, 21:07

And Dowding??? The British problem in 1938 wasn't just Fighter Command
of course...but Dowding did express his opinion that the RAF was not ready in 1938 and pushed Chamberlain to forgo appeasement if possible as a direct result of not being ready...Unsure if anyone in Bomber command did likewise...

but what is your opinion as to distribution of aircraft to France in 1938 had Germany entered a conflict with Czechoslovakia?
would the bulk be mainly fighters as it had been historically in 1940 or would France and Britain sought mainly to send bombers (regardless of strength, etc.) to combat Germany if war did perceive to begin in 1938 over Czechoslovakia if and had Britain even decided to send aircraft to France as a reaction/consequence to hostilities beginning in 1938?http://www.hendsweb.co.uk/ericsweb/index.php?p=aircraft

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#49

Post by phylo_roadking » 26 Jan 2012, 21:19

Unsure if anyone in Bomber command did likewise...
Did you read the link?
In late march the British and French givernments independently asked their highly experienced chiefs of Air Staff, Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Cyril Newall and General Joseph Vuillermin, to assess their respective services' capabilities. The shocking response from both was that their bomber force was incapable of effective offensive operations and would rapidly be destroyed by enemy defences; indeed, Vuillermin estimated that they would be wiped out within a fortnight. By Mid-September 1938 the British and French had some 700 bombers but the only modern ones were 385 RAF Battles, Blenheims and Whitleys. Ludlow-Hewitt in October 1937 had recognised that his bombers, such as single-engine Wellesleys and twin-engine Harrows, were no match for the Bf109 and his Annual Report of 10 March 1938 stated that "our Bomber Force is, judged from a war standard, practically useless". Six months later he had only 200 fully operational pilots, a serviceability rate of about 50 per cent and a 33 per cent reserve.
ACM Edgar Ludlow-Hewitt was AOC Bomber Command.
would the bulk be mainly fighters as it had been historically in 1940
I think you need to check the rest of that thread and do some Googling ;)
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#50

Post by bf109 emil » 26 Jan 2012, 21:49

I think you need to check the rest of that thread and do some Googling ;)
for what...to know both bomber command and fighter command where weak in 1938...and most likely neither fighters nor bombers would be sent to France or was there already a secret agenda as to the number and types of planes should the Munich Pact have failed? :idea:

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#51

Post by phylo_roadking » 26 Jan 2012, 22:26

mainly fighters as it had been historically in 1940
I think you need to check the rest of that thread and do some Googling
for what...
...to find out what the British REALLY sent to France in 1939/40 in the forward deployment role being discussed :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Ai ... _of_battle

Six fighter squadrons....and TEN bomber squadrons (14 if you count the four Army Co-op "strategic recce" Blenheim squadrons...and 19 when you remember the Lysanders were used as light bombers too! 8O) The rest were sent as circumstances demanded I.E. were not part of the initial deployment plans.

In the end, the number of fighter "squadrons" sent only ever reached 13 (some made up of two half-squadrons) I.E. less than the number of bombers sent. What exaggerates the losses in people's minds are the Spitfires ALSO lost when operating over Dunkirk and covering BEF II from the UK. But these weren't part of the BEF.
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#52

Post by bf109 emil » 26 Jan 2012, 22:43

But these weren't part of the BEF.
Nope and thank heavens Dowding could see the light and not continue sending good after bad into the French campaign...
The letter that changed the course of history

HEADQUARTERS FIGHTER COMMAND
ROYAL AIR FORCE,
BENTLEY PRIORY,
STANMORE,
MIDDLESEX.
SECRET
May 16, 1940
Sir,
I have the honour to refer to the very serious calls which have recently been made upon the Home Defence Fighter'Units in an attempt to stem the German invasion on the Continent.

2, I hope and believe that our Armies may yet be victorious in France and Belgium, but we have to face the
possibility that they may be defeated.

3. In this case I presume that there is no-one who will deny that England should fight on, even though the remainder of the Continent of Europe is dominated by the Germans.

4. For this purpose it is necessary to retain some minimum fighter strength in this country and I must request that
the Air Council will inform me what they consider this minimum strength to be, in order that I may make my dispositions accordingly.

5. I would remind the Air Council that the last estimate which they made as to the force necessary to defend this country was 52 Squadrons, and my strength has now been reduced to the equivalent of 36 Squadrons.

6. Once a decision has been reached as to the limit on which the Air Council and the Cabinet are prepared to stake the existence of the country, it should be made clear to the Allied Commanders on the Continent that not a single aeroplane from Fighter Command beyond the limit will be sent across the Channel, no matter how desperate the situation may become.

7. It will, of course, be remembered that the estimate of 52 Squadrons was based on the assumption that the attack would come from the eastwards except in so far as the defences might be outflanked in flight. We have now to face the possibility that attacks may come from Spain or even from the North coast of France. The result is that our line is very much extended at the same time as our resources are reduced.

8. I must point out that within the last few days the equivalent of 10 Squadrons have been sent to France, that the Hurricane Squadrons remaining in this country are seriously depleted, and that the more Squadrons which are sent to France the higher will be the wastage and the more insistent the demands for reinforcements.

9. I must therefore request that as a matter of paramount urgency the Air Ministry will consider and decide what level of strength is to be left to the Fighter Command for the defences of this country, and will assure me that when this level has been reached, not one fighter will be sent across the Channel however urgent and insistent the appeals for help may be.

10. I believe that, if an adequate fighter force is kept in this country, if the fleet remains in being, and if Home Forces are suitably organised to resist invasion, we should be able to carry on the war single handed for some time, if not indefinitely. But, if the Home Defence Force is drained away in desperate attempts to remedy the situation in France, defeat in France will involve the final, complete and irremediable defeat of this country.

I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient Servant,


Air Chief Marshal,
Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief,
Fighter Command,Royal Air Force.
http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/document-7.html

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#53

Post by phylo_roadking » 26 Jan 2012, 22:52

and thank heavens Dowding could see the light and not continue sending good after bad into the French campaign...
Dowding's letter didn't change history; what REALLY did was....HITLER! He sat on his thumb for nearly six weeks after the Armistice for France, and the proper Luftwaffe air campaign against Britain didn't actually start until the first days of the second week of August because of that (should have been the start of the the month but was delayed by bad weather)....six weeks when the British were building monoplane fighters 50% faster than the Germans, three to every two. In effect, therefore, the RAF made up very nearly ALL its losses because of Hitler's delay, not because Dowding refused to send another couple of squadrons to France.

See Peter Fleming's "Operation Sealion" - he deals with Hitler's various delays, peace "offers" and psi-war ops that he gave his attention to in those weeks rather than getting on with actually fighting the war :wink:
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#54

Post by bf109 emil » 27 Jan 2012, 22:48

Dowding's letter didn't change history; what REALLY did was....HITLER! He sat on his thumb for nearly six weeks after the Armistice for France,
2 different time frames...hard to say if Dowding's letter had not been sent, what additional aircraft and qualified pilots might have been lost in France, prior to an armistice...something the letter recognized and addressed directly.
six weeks when the British were building monoplane fighters 50% faster than the Germans, three to every two.
was the peril to Britain more dangerous over a quantity of planes or pilots available to fly them during this time?
See Peter Fleming's "Operation Sealion" - he deals with Hitler's various delays, peace "offers" and psi-war ops that he gave his attention to in those weeks rather than getting on with actually fighting the war :wink:
does Flemings book address Dowdings "chicks" and lack of them? :wink: :wink: lol
In effect, therefore, the RAF made up very nearly ALL its losses because of Hitler's delay, not because Dowding refused to send another couple of squadrons to France.
planes not pilots :wink: :wink:
Last edited by bf109 emil on 27 Jan 2012, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#55

Post by bf109 emil » 27 Jan 2012, 23:10

from Bishop...finding sufficient numbers of fully trained fighter pilots became acute by mid-August 1940

losing 435 trained pilots in the Battle of France alone not counting Norway played a bigger role in the BoB then did lack of aircraft available...

from Bungay...Drawing from regular RAF forces and the Auxiliary Air Force and the Volunteer Reserve, the British could muster some 1,103 fighter pilots on 1 July. Replacement pilots, with little flight training and often no gunnery training, suffered high casualty rates.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#56

Post by phylo_roadking » 28 Jan 2012, 12:58

2 different time frames...hard to say if Dowding's letter had not been sent, what additional aircraft and qualified pilots might have been lost in France, prior to an armistice...something the letter recognized and addressed directly.
But not ones that could be separated - because an INCREASED loss over France would have been an even larger loss to make up in those next six weeks.
was the peril to Britain more dangerous over a quantity of planes or pilots available to fly them during this time?
does Flemings book address Dowdings "chicks" and lack of them?
planes not pilots
1/ Fighter Command didn't actually loose as many pilots....pliots, not total aircrew :wink: ...as planes in and over France...for they were fighting over admittedly ever-shrinking but still "friendly territory". The REAL losses didn't start until the so-called Kanalkampf aterwards.
Drawing from regular RAF forces and the Auxiliary Air Force and the Volunteer Reserve, the British could muster some 1,103 fighter pilots on 1 July
.

Remember - Fighter Command could only handle a maximum of 730-750 aircraft in the air at once under its GCI system :wink:

And a squadron's "normal" complement of pilots was ~22 pilots....but was only expected to roster 12 aircraft daily, perhaps another full flight of four in extremis and for airfield defence. The "shortage" at the start of the BoB...thanks to the Kanalkampf...was a relative shortage compared to full squadron complements.There was NO squadron at the start of AUgust...or even though July...that couldn't muster its twelve fighters daily.

Through the battle...squadrons became "exhausted" as their total complements depleted, and it wasn't possible to allow pilots their rotated days off and leave allowance. But there were very VERY few instances of any not being able to roster their full obligation each morning. In effect...a squadron had to loose almost half its pilots to not be able to.
losing 435 trained pilots in the Battle of France
Fighter Pilots? Or aircrew.... :wink:
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#57

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 28 Jan 2012, 14:00

Hop wrote:
Over 600 Spitfires were shot down over Northern France in 1941, the Luftwaffe lost approximately 120 fighters, meaning a 5 to 1 exchange rate.
The Luftwaffe figures are very understated.

JG 2 and JG 26 alone lost 100 pilots killed, 1 pow, and 48 wounded between 22nd June and 31 December 1941.

I think we can pretty much guarantee a dead or captured pilot meant a lost plane. There should also have been planes lost where the pilot survived (either by landing a badly damaged plane, or by parachuting). In the BoB the RAF lost about 420 Spitfire and Hurricane pilots killed, about 920 Spitfires and Hurricanes were destroyed.

Sadly the Luftwaffe loss figures are incomplete, but the loss of 100 pilots in the second half of 1941 should mean around 200 fighters lost.

On top of that there were other Luftwaffe fighter units operational on the channel front. JFS5 claimed about 50 kills in the second half of 1941. JG 1, JG 52, JG 53 and ZG 76 all made a handful of claims.

And that's just the second half of 1941.
This caught my attention. Not long ago someone argued to me the ratio of actual loss, fighter to fighter plane, were not remotely what is popularly suposed. Aside from understated German losses and the seperation of RAF losses to anti aircraft artillery he also claimed the losses of fighter planes to accidents were not seperated either. Finally he made a point about the German pilots who parachuted safely without wounds not showing as pilot losses, wheras the RAF pilots were either prisoner or hiding somewhere in France & therefor a loss.

My own final thought is if the German losses include aircraft forced down but repaired? In the case of the RAF there were no friendly airfields nearby, so aircraft with similar damage to the German 'repaired' aircraft would become permanent losses.

Unfortunatly I did not take notes from those two conversations and despite the mention of a book on theis subject I dont recall the title.

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#58

Post by phylo_roadking » 28 Jan 2012, 14:09

My own final thought is if the German losses include aircraft forced down but repaired? In the case of the RAF there were no friendly airfields nearby, so aircraft with similar damage to the German 'repaired' aircraft would become permanent losses.
Also, much like the Luftwaffe lost a lot of aircraft in late 1942 of their unit totals...a number of RAF aircraft would have been lost on the ground when RAF units were forced to abandon/destroy U/S aircraft, or those under maintenance, as they abandoned airfields in May 1940 and headed for the coast....
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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#59

Post by bf109 emil » 30 Jan 2012, 20:42

How is loss of an aircraft defined? A single cannon shell through a wing spar or frame might make that aircraft as unflight worthy and thus written off...

Didn't Beaverbrook cannibalize a number of written off or destroyed aircraft and make them flight worthy again?

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Re: Luftwaffe vs RAF

#60

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Jan 2012, 21:32

Didn't Beaverbrook cannibalize a number of written off or destroyed aircraft and make them flight worthy again?
Hundreds during the BoB....maybe thousands across the whole war? :wink: His "Civilian Repair Organisation" was a conglomerate of several dozen car and small/light aircraft companies...facilities that weren't already doing other war work...and by the middle of July 1940 it was returning 160 fighters A WEEK to squadrons. It wasn't just for write-offs; pilots with damage could fly there DIRECT to get damage repaired, rather than overload airfield mechanics tied up with regular servicing. They worked a 14-hour day, seven days a week...and during the Battle some fighters returned from the CRO two or even three times!

In comparison - the Germans produced only 164 Bf109s in July, and only 220 in August....
A single cannon shell through a wing spar or frame might make that aircraft as unflight worthy and thus written off...
Only IF there's no way to repair or replace! Unflightworthy is NOT the same as written-off...unflightworthy, or rather "unserviceable" - "U/S"...is something that can change. That was one of the advantages of having the CRO in place - RAF "erks" had problems repairing battle damage to the Spitfire's aluminium monocoque....but aircraft factories didn't, of course!
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