Heinkel He111Z "Zwilling"

[Davide Pastore]

the prototypes - one of which crashed, after all, and had to be replaced

I didn't knew that. Do you mean, it crashed during flight trials?

[phylo_roadking]

Yes, need to chase down the details again, but it ended up in a small lake somewhere close to Reichlin.

[Davide Pastore]

What I need to know is how many aircrafts were ready in July 1942.
Your opinion?

[phylo_roadking]

Found it again, here...

http://www.lwag.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1261

[phylo_roadking]

If the RAF saw one sitting on an active airfield on the 1st of May with a serving unit, I see no reason why the rest couldn't have been delivered by July. Although the He111 was generally withdrawn from frontline use "in 1942"...how far back did Marienehe scale production? If the lines were still working full-pitch, especially in the early part of the year, ten aircraft isn't going to overtax them especially.

[Davide Pastore]

Thank you.

BTW according to Schiffer's Messerschmitt Me 321/323 - Giants of the Luftwaffe (by H. P. Dabrowski) in spring 1942 only two Me 321 staffels remained operational:

Numbers 3 and 4 heavy gliders squadrons of combat group 2

I believe this translates into 3.(GS)/KG z.b.V. 2 and 4.(GS)/KG z.b.V. 2

According to the same source, paper strength was six gliders per staffel, twelve gliders in total (although of course there must be somewhere a large number of reserve gliders, since 166 were built).

Then, the available number He 111Z in July 1942 should have been able to lift at one single time nearly the entire extant 321 active force.

Do you agree with the information above?

[phylo_roadking]

Re the large reserve force - not necessarily. I don't recall ever reading details as the Eastern front is not my thing, but they were used in a number of operations in 1941 and 1942; don't forget, heavy-lift gliders in those days MAY not have been designed as such, but were often "single use" - and don't forget the Me323 was described as "inherently unstable" so the unpowered versaion may have been more of a "controlled plummet" than a "glide". Circumstantial evidence...hand-in-hand with the 323 development there was a plan to fit 321s with Argus pulse-jets for extra rnage after cast-off...as well as the Walther RATO pods needed to actually get it off the ground...

And the upgunning and extra crewman of the 321B-1 can't have helped stability.

But your source should give you loss numbers for service use on the Ostfront per operation?

Also AFAIK some were back-engineered into 323s? But if you have that source it should tell you how many, if that's not just urban legend.

[phylo_roadking]

oh, meant to say - what source gives you 6 gliders per Staffel? "The first unit equiped with 321s had 18", if that's reflected all along the way then your total COULD actually be - 36?

[phylo_roadking]

So far I have...

14 September 1941
Messerschmitt Me321 heavy assault transport gliders (sailplanes) of Staffel [GS] 1 are used for the first time in an operational air assault on Saaremaa island in the Baltic, as part of an attempt to capture the fort of Kübarsaare.

I haven't found any more combat ops, so I assume all the other operations on the Eastern Front up to July 1942 are transport flights. However, an FJ history site notes that there was ongoing training through mid 1942

In mid-1942, secret experimentation with gliders carrying as many as 50 or more men were being conducted officially on the airfields of Stendal, Hildesheim, Halberstadt, Hanover, and Berlin. Tests in carrying all-purpose vehicles and tanks have been frequent.

"Fifty men or more" and vehicle carrying? MUST by a process of deduction been the 321s so they weren't ALL in Russia on or around July 1942, a sizeable number must have been tied up on this training.

[phylo_roadking]

AHA!

Ron Klages posted this on Feldgrau in September 2006

Me 321s were found only in Grossraumlastenseglergruppe Me 321 initially which was formed in June 1941. The organization was to be three Staffeln each with 6 Me 321s and three towpalne Staffeln each with 12 Bf 110Cs.
Almost immediately thius was revised to be four Sonderstaffeln (Grossraumlastensegler). Each was to have 5 Me 321s gliders and 15 Bf 110C tow planes. These were designed and located as follows:

Staffel (GS) 1 in the area of Luftflotte 1 in the northern eastern front
Staffel (GS)22 in the area of Luftflotte 2 in the central eastern front
Staffel (GS) 4 in the area of Luftflotte 4 in the southern eastern front
Staffel (GS) 2 in the area of Luftflotte 2 in the central eastern front

Staffel (GS) 1 participated in the assault on the islands of Muhu, Saaremaa and Hiiumaa west of Estonia in the Gulf of Riga in September 1941.

Staffel (GS)22 and Staffel (GS) 4 flew only a few logistical support missions during October on the eastern front before the weather changed making landing these beasts on wet dirt runways impossible.

In December 1941 the units were disbanded.

In total 200 Me 321s ere accepted by the Luftwaffe with 186 being accepted by December 1941 and the remainder in the first months of 1941. They remained in service and were used now and then for logistical support missions until being pulled from front line service in early 1942. Some were also used for supply missions to the Kuban bridgehead operating out of Bagerovo in the Crimea. After that most were transferred to Istres in France during the summer of 1943

Very interesting. Looks as if this accomdates ALL three points - a large reserve of what are - in combat use - "disposable" aircraft, a VERY limited active deployment in Russia followed by some limited transport duty, and a subsequent removal from Russia...after which the reported FJ testing and training "in mid 1942" would have taken place.

Query - if these "assault" staffeln were disbanded in 1941 - WHO operated them in their transport role through 1942?

[Davide Pastore]

But your source should give you loss numbers for service use on the Ostfront per operation?

No, sorry

Also AFAIK some were back-engineered into 323s? But if you have that source it should tell you how many, if that's not just urban legend.

Total of 15 according to Schiffer volume.
Six converted into Me 321C (4 engines) and 9 converted into Me 321D (6 engines).
Denomination very soon changed into Me 323C [probably C-0?] and 323D [D-0?]

According to a printed source I trust very much (Vajda & Dancey, German aircraft industry production) there were two prototypes (V1 and V2 of the two types, respectively) both converted from gliders. Either they are to be added to the 15 above, or they are already included in that number. Add the 198 (12x D-0, 20x D-1, 110x D-2 & D-6, 56x E-1) constructed from scratch, total of 213 or 215.

[Davide Pastore]

Tests in carrying all-purpose vehicles and tanks have been frequent.

Interesting.

In another thread in the same forum I asked about the maximum payload really carried onboard both 321 and 323.

Any info?

[Davide Pastore]

Sorry, duplicate post

[Davide Pastore]

Grossraumlastenseglergruppe Me 321 initially which was formed in June 1941. The organization was to be three Staffeln each with 6 Me 321s and three towplane Staffeln each with 12 Bf 110Cs.

Staffel (GS) 1 in the area of Luftflotte 1 in the northern eastern front
Staffel (GS)22 in the area of Luftflotte 2 in the central eastern front
Staffel (GS) 4 in the area of Luftflotte 4 in the southern eastern front
Staffel (GS) 2 in the area of Luftflotte 2 in the central eastern front

In December 1941 the units were disbanded.

This more or less is what the Schiffer volume says, except that the author put the Staffeln into a "combat group 2" (don't you hate them when they made translations as this one?) with two disbanded by early 1942, leaving only 3. and 4.

WHO operated them in their transport role through 1942?

According to same book:

These were later combined as the heavy glider command Number 1 and received the He 111Z as tow aircraft. In January 1943, 12 Me 321 gliders left Obertraubling toward Krim. During transit, multiple unscheduled landings took place as well as total breakdowns and by 31 January 1943, only three of these gliders were operationally ready. From January to March 1943, 11 Me 321 landed in Slawianskaja bringing provisions. There were numerous breakdowns and finally only a single Me 321 returned to Obertraubling.

Note: I don't understand the complaint for "numerous breakdowns". Since there were 12 at the beginning, and 11 landed, it's fairly obvious to me only 1 was left.

Data for 16 January 1943 shows that heavy glider command Number 2 was to be used for Woroschilowgrad with 10 Me 321's for service near Stalingrad.
[...]
From May to June 1943, the heavy glider commands Number 1 and 2 were transferred from IX Corps in Obertraubling to Reims and Istres near Marseille. Under Captain Pohl, a total of 20 Me 321 and 11 He 111Z were registered.
[...]
The disbandment of the heavy gliders command tok place in December 1943. The remaining Me 321 were scrapped and the He 111Z went to the 4th Squadron of Heavy Transport Group 2.

We have previously met He 111Z part of KG z.b.V. 2 (which more or less is in agreement with "combat group 2") so I supposed the gliders were there too at the beginning, before being transformed into two units named something like "1. and 2. Grossraumlastenseglerkommando" (?) (GSKdo ?)

[Davide Pastore]

More light on the subject (from http://www.ww2.dk/)

Sonderstaffel GS 1
Staffelkapitän: Olt Melzer, 6.41 - 1.42
Formed 6.41 in Leipheim for Luftflotte 1, with 6 Me 321 gliders, and several Bf 110/He 111 towing aircraft.
Left Obertraubling in early 7.41, and arrived in Riga by the end of 8.41, via Schroda and Prowehren. Participated in the attack on Ösel 21.9.41 with 4 Me 321.
Remained at Riga until 11.41, when it moved to Merseburg.
Disbanded there 1.42.

Sonderstaffel GS 2
Staffelkapitän: Olt Baumann, 6.41 - 1.42
Formed 6.41 in Leipheim, to function as a training and replacement unit for the other GS Staffeln.
Moved to Merseburg 11.41, and was disbanded there 1.42.

Sonderstaffel GS 4
Staffelkapitän: Olt Pohl, 6.41 - 1.42
Formed 6.41 in Leipheim for Luftflotte 4.
Left Obertraubling 7.41 and arrived in Winniza, via Merseburg and Jasionka. Remained at Winniza until 11.41, when it returned home to Leipheim.
In 1.42 redesignated 4.(GS)/KGzbV 2.

Sonderstaffel GS 22
Staffelkapitän: Olt Schäfer, 6.41 - 1.42
Formed 6.41 in Leipheim for Luftflotte 2.
Moved to Orscha-South in 7.41, via Schroda and Terespol. Remained there until 11.41, when it returned home to Leipheim.
In 1.42 redesignated 3.(GS)/KGzbV 2.

GS-Kommando 1
Formed 12.42 in Obertraubling from 3.(GS)/KGzbV 2, with He 111Z and Me 321 gliders.
In late 5.43 moved to Istres and 9.43 to Dijon.
Disbanded 12.43.
Subordinated to Arbeitsstab Hptm. Pohl, 5.43 - 12.43.

GS-Kommando 2
Formed 12.42 in Obertraubling from 4.(GS)/KGzbV 2, with He 111Z and Me 321 gliders.
Moved to Makejewka in 1.43, and to Bagerowo 2.43. Returned home to Obertraubling in 4.43.
In late 5.43 moved to Istres, and 9.43 to Dijon.
Disbanded 12.43.
Subordinated to Arbeitsstab Hptm. Pohl, 5.43 - 12.43.

Arbeitsstab Hptm. Pohl
Kommandeure: Hptm Pohl, 5.43 - 12.43
Formed 5.43 in Obertraubling, to control GS-Kommando 1 & GS-Kommando 2
In late 5.43 moved to Istres, and 9.43 to Dijon.
Disbanded 12.43.

So, 1942-43 history looks like:

Sonderstaffel GS 4 (until 1.42) => 4.(GS)/KGzbV 2 (1.42-12.42) => GS-Kommando 2 (12.42-12.43)

Sonderstaffel GS 22 (until 1.42) => 3.(GS)/KGzbV 2 (1.42-12.42) => GS-Kommando 1 (12.42-12.43)