Me 262 combat kill ratio victories/losses?

[gabriel pagliarani]

William Green is an expert on every Luftwaffe aircraft ever made.

I've posted in the past tables of production of the Me 262's Jumo 004B engines, and the design was not even frozen until June, 1944. Thereafter the production of engines began to climb. By the time sufficient engines had been delivered to complete a group of combat aircraft Hitler had abandoned the fighter-bomber idea and given priority to fighters only.

To put it bluntly, Galland is full of beans.

As far as the axial turbojet being a technological dead-end, that is nonsense as well. In fact, the radial turbojet design invented by Whittle used on the Meteor and the P-80 and F-86 Sabre was a dead-end. All jet engines today are axial-flow turbojets (or turbofan, which is an improved axial design). The problem with the wartime German engines was the lack of nonferrous metals like chromium, nickel, tungsten, molybdenum or anything used in alloy steels that would resist the tremendous heat. That the Germans were able to overcome this problem at all was an impressive feat of engineering.

As far as the Me 262 and the sound barrier, the airframe became uncontrollable from compressibility over 600 mph. However, the sweptback design was better than any other wartime aircraft, so it is possible that in a dive the airframe would have survived breaking the sound barrier. It would not have been able to break the sound barrier in level flight, just like the F-86, but which sometimes did in the rigors of combat. Modern aircraft use knife-thin wings for transmach capabilities. The A-10 and the Harrier can break the sound barrier too but not in level flight.

The main limit of radial jets was in the high rotational speed required because both compressor than turbine were centrifugal devices and the throttle control was not therefore rated directly to the quantity of fuel injected in the combustion chamber, but it was square-rated (acc.... I cannot write the math phormula..) to rotational speed. In this way half throttle was not equivalent to about half pulling force (linear feed back) but only a percent (exponential or anti-logarithmic curve) This was the main problem dad encountered at the cloche of the excellent De Havilland Vampire: a hard throttle control. Only the very very best (..old vets) of AMI pilots were able to dogfight in such a condition during 1950. The blades of the rotor-propellers and the Venturi moving cone of the Jumos were "Keramiks", an actual solution reinvented by NASA during early'70 to overcome the hard Space shuttle specifications for the rocket exhaust cones of the main engines. As much powerful as Saturn V lunar missiles 1st stage man engines but to be ignited not once but a lot of times. Enclosed the only photo I have of dad on a Vampire. Sorry for poor quality but 53 years are too many for a poor Agfa quality photo, sometimes.

[Scott Smith]

Neat picture, Gabriel!

[gabriel pagliarani]

...and you cannot understand the size! Less than 3x5 inches...but photo-paper was a luxury item. And this yellow type was the worst...Note the British early'50 goggles, American rubber oxygen mask with gummy expansive valve and the last British leather helmets. In Korea metallic helmets were just in use on allied jets. A collection of battle-dresses...

[Huckebein]

As a plane nears mach 1, there is intense buffetting. When a plane goes through the sound barrier, the intense buffetting stops and smooth flight occurs.

The diving Me262 pilot did not report that the buffetting suddenly stopped, otherwise I would believe this story. As it is I think he came near to mach 1, but didn't break the sound barrier.

Not quite correct. On planes that encounter buffeting throughout transonic speed range, after Mach 1 is reached buffeting does not stop. It stops only after the plane flies in fully supersonic regime, which usually is at speeds above Mach 1.4. This happens because not all the surfaces of the plane fly in supersonic inflow at Mach 1.

As long as Me-262 had a thin airfoil and swept wings it could reach supersonic flight in dive. You have understand that acceleration in dive is much bigger than acceleration in level flight given by engines alone at this high speeds. Actually almost all jet fighters are not capable of Mach 1 in level flight without using afterburners (except at high altitudes where some of them can scratch the Mach 1.0001 barrier).

[Huckebein]

As far as the axial turbojet being a technological dead-end, that is nonsense as well. In fact, the radial turbojet design invented by Whittle used on the Meteor and the P-80 and F-86 Sabre was a dead-end. All jet engines today are axial-flow turbojets (or turbofan, which is an improved axial design). The problem with the wartime German engines was the lack of nonferrous metals like chromium, nickel, tungsten, molybdenum or anything used in alloy steels that would resist the tremendous heat. That the Germans were able to overcome this problem at all was an impressive feat of engineering.

What I meant was that the twin podded engine layout would make the Me-262 design aerodynamically unviable for supersonic flight (too much drag not enough thrust) I wasn’t talking at that point about engines, however, see below.

Not true, fighters with wing gondolas can reach even Mach 2, if the necessary thrust is provided together with a strealined fuselage and 60 deg swept angle wings (that's the easiest solution, but there are alternatives).

Check out the Yak-28P:

[ArmyDicked]

I knew a little about JG44 from Galland's book But I did not know anything about other units and their pilots.

From other sites I have heard about 1200 were built of which only about 300 flew, Still don't know how many of those flew as fighters or didn't because of Hitler's stupid "Blitzbomber idea."

JG7 450 victories in two months with the fuel shortage as it was, sounds pretty astounding. Is there anywhere to read up on this?

Have a good day

Actually almost all of the Me 262s were configured as fighters, not fight-bombers. Btw, almost all combat jets are fighter-bombers today. Must not have been such a stupid idea after all.

Everyone WHINES about Hitler ruining the ME262 by insisting it be made into a bomber. NO, HE DID NOT!!! What he asked was could it be made to drop bombs? The Answer was YES, a pair of 1,000 lbs could be slung under it BUT speed would be reduced to sub 200mph and it would absolutely strain the pathetically unreliable jet engines (good for 8-20hrs of flight time before total swapping out). Hitler wanted a BLITZ Bomber and thought he could force the Me262 (first Gen) fighters into Fighter Bombers---this was a good idea executed poorly with the wrong weapons platform. There's no harm in asking!!! Take the Arado 234 Blitz Bomber. It was wretched as a Bomber---the Ludendorf bridge mission(s) are a case in point. HOWEVER, as a camera operated RECON aircraft, it was PEERLESS. Arados routinely penetrated England's air space and routinely flew missions over the Normandy beaches with none being shot down.

Hitler may have been a First Class Clown when it came to Strategy but he was dead on it when it came to his 'toys'. He ordered the PZkpfw III upgunned to 50mm KWK L60 status before France 1940 and the Waffanant laughted in his face and said 37mm guns are adequate. Guess What, Hitler was right! He also insisted all Pzkpfw IIIs be upgunned for Russia and again, he was ignored. When the Shock of the T-34 model 1940 and KV-1A hit in late 1941, Hitler alone pushed for an immediate copy of the T34 with a diesel engine and he was overruled/guilt tripped into going with the hedious Panther tank. I say, cut EINNUTZEN some slack, people. I mean, didnt John Lennon want him on the cover of SGT Pepper? (true!)

[Topspeed]

As a plane nears mach 1, there is intense buffetting. When a plane goes through the sound barrier, the intense buffetting stops and smooth flight occurs.

The diving Me262 pilot did not report that the buffetting suddenly stopped, otherwise I would believe this story. As it is I think he came near to mach 1, but didn't break the sound barrier.

Not quite correct. On planes that encounter buffeting throughout transonic speed range, after Mach 1 is reached buffeting does not stop. It stops only after the plane flies in fully supersonic regime, which usually is at speeds above Mach 1.4. This happens because not all the surfaces of the plane fly in supersonic inflow at Mach 1.

As long as Me-262 had a thin airfoil and swept wings it could reach supersonic flight in dive. You have understand that acceleration in dive is much bigger than acceleration in level flight given by engines alone at this high speeds. Actually almost all jet fighters are not capable of Mach 1 in level flight without using afterburners (except at high altitudes where some of them can scratch the Mach 1.0001 barrier).

I tought it was the other way round..when plane is supersonic some parts go already 1.4 mach speed ??? Are you sure ?