Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
GregSingh
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby GregSingh » 13 Jan 2016 01:22

mirekw wrote:This photo where it has come?


It appeared in Luftflotte I - 1939, both in Polish/English, which helps a lot. :D from http://www.sklep.kagero.pl/lang/en

mirekw
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby mirekw » 13 Jan 2016 14:04

Krzysztof Janowicz, Luftfolotte I and + IV, very old 2 booklets done by Kagero (about 10 yers ago). I had had them both several years ago, but sold a few years ago. There are many errors. Janowicz is not a deep researcher and analyst, he took this photo from German publication.

Thanks for the info.

regards,
mw

PS
M. Emmerling is editing in Poland and in Germany many articles about Luftwaffe over Poland in the last 10 years, his texts are also usefull, but only in Polish or in German. The books are edited 100 % Polish, the first is about Jagdflieger over Poland, Gdynia 2002.

mirekw
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby mirekw » 13 Jan 2016 14:17

To be exact and Janowicz's errors - Okęcie was morning 01/09/39 bombed by He 111 II(K)/ LG 1, and not by KG 27, as seen in the caption under the photo. This is error.

II(K)/LG 1 had send over Warsaw 35 He 111 on 01/09.39, over different targets. Okęcie was under attack done by 5.(K)/LG 1

Reagrds,
mw

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4thskorpion
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby 4thskorpion » 13 Jan 2016 14:32

Marius Emmerling has his detractors in Poland.

There appears to be no synthesis of both German and Polish accounts of the Luftwaffe campaign Poland available in one comprehensive study.The published works appear to me to be from either the one perspective or the other.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby Sid Guttridge » 13 Jan 2016 14:53

Hi 4thSkorpion,

This is a widespread problem. For all the various publishers' hype, there seems to be no definitive account of the Polish Campaign on any level, in English at least, because the Anglo-Saxon authors tend to only read German.

There are some very detailed Polish official histories, largely from the Communist era, but these probably have their own nationalist and ideological problems.

I suspect that the best histories will come from dispationate, modern, German-language, academic publications, with access to Polish sources.

Cheers,

Sid

mirekw
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby mirekw » 14 Jan 2016 09:52

Marius Emmerling has his detractors in Poland.


I am one of them as Mirosław Wawrzyński in Poland. Despite the many criticisms that openly spoken at M. Emmerlinaga his work on the Luftwaffe over Poland are very valuable. I use them when writing own papers about the air war over Poland.

There appears to be no synthesis of both German and Polish accounts of the Luftwaffe campaign Poland available in one comprehensive study.The published works appear to me to be from either the one perspective or the other.


This is not true. I am the author of, among others, two large monograph on air defense and Warsaw and Modlin in 1939 (look on both sides - synthesis).

Next. There are 5 volumes of history, each Polish squadron (dywizjon myśliwski) done by Łukasz Łydżba. This is very solid monography of Polish fighter units in IX 1939. Next such very deep and good synhesis.

Next. There is quite large book about all polish fighter units in IX 193 done by Jerzy B. Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo myśliwskie w boju wrześniowym"" in 2000 - it is a very big monography and this is the next synthesis. Jezy B. Cynk was very big detractors of M. Emmerling and one another.

Of course this is all texts done and edited in Poland and all in Polish, but there are. The 3 books done by Emmerling are also edited in Poland and are all in Polish. There were not yet edited in German, and will not, to small market on such subject?

reagrds,
mw

mirekw
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby mirekw » 14 Jan 2016 10:46

big_Militaria_dod_10-okladka_TIF.jpg
iv-1-dywizjon-mysliwski-b-iext23215541.jpg


There are some titles:
in 2009 was edited mine: "Obrona przeciwlotnicza Modlina we wrześniu 1939 roku", Mirosław Wawrzyński, in: Militaria XX wieku, Numer Specjalny 3(10)/2009, p. 26-44, 31 b&w photos, 1 map, 1 tabel.

In 2015 was edited, already mentioned, my work about: "Obrona przeciwlotnicza czynna Warszawy".

Next sample is:

Jerzy B. Cynk. "Lotnictwo myśliwskie w boju wrześniowym", AJ-Press, Gdańsk 2000. And should be mentioned at least the last 2 of 5 books edited by Łukasz Łydżba - very fundamental study.

There are more such studies, but all in Polish, like works done by Tomasz J. Kopański (about PZL.23, PZL P.11, PZL P.7, PZL.37 ect.).


Regards,
mw
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GregSingh
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby GregSingh » 15 Jan 2016 05:30

Mirek,

I received a copy of your article you mentioned earlier about AA defenses in Warsaw.

You wrote:
"13 September[..] 50 German planes bombed Gdanska railway station, Citadel and surroundings.
Positions of 103 Independent AA battery were also targeted. Afterwards 50 bomb craters were found nearby."

I have a couple of questions:
What's your source? Do you know which German unit was involved? Where exactly was this AA battery located?

There is a map of AA defenses earlier in your article. 103 Independent AA battery is placed in the middle of "Jewish quarter", south of rail line....

Thanks,

Greg

mirekw
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby mirekw » 15 Jan 2016 10:42

The main source is: "Obrona Warszawy w 1939. Wybór dokumentów wojskowych", MON, Warszawa 1968, by Mieczysław Ciepielewicz, p. 88-90 (as on 13 IX 39). This is fundamenal work - there are all survived reports by K. Baran and other commandes from defence of Warsaw in 1939. Very good, solid work.

There is such: "Meldunek sytuacyjny dowódcy obrony przeciwlotniczej czynnej płk K. Barana", including daily report as on 13 IX 1939, and for the next days too, but there are not all reports for all days in IX 39 (like for 25-27 IX - pity), not all survived in our archive.

Next, there are 2 texts from 70. done by St. Truszkowski about Polish A/A batteries in IX 1939. The maps are based on his material, which is given under the map.

Next there are 4 big volumes of all reports, documents, memories done in WW II or after by Polish A/A commanders, who fought in IX 1939: "Polska obrona przeciwlotnicza 1939. Opracowania i dokumenty. tom 3/1, 3/2, 3/3, 3/4, Warszawa 2012-2013. There are almost all reports of Polish A/A commanders taken from the all archives public, private in Wasaw, London, publication ect., including materials from the defence of Warsaw.

This text (mine) it is as for such artcle quite large (about 85.000 signes) but I can not make it much bigger, such things like giving the Luftwaffe's unit names is too much for such small space in magazine. Sorry.

Greg you can do this if you want and you can find this LW's unit. Emmerling's books have this info. (vol. 2 and vol 3). It is easy, "a piece of cake". To work!

regards,
mw


PS.
This text is in: Historia Wojsko i Technika, wrzesień-październik, nr 1/2015, "Obrona przeciwlotnicza czynna Warszawy w 1939 r.", p. 32-47, 30 b&w photos, 3 maps, 1 colour drawing.

Next, there is a nice text done by M. Emmerling, "Dywizjon niszczycieli I./76 w 1939 roku", p. 48-69 too. This is quite strong magazin with articles about IX 1939 in/over Poland, :-)
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GregSingh
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby GregSingh » 18 Jan 2016 03:27

Thanks Mirek.

LColombo
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby LColombo » 06 Feb 2016 12:10

Question, are there any statistics about the bomb tonnage dropped by the Luftwaffe over Poland?

andrus
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

Postby andrus » 16 Jul 2017 23:31

Few details for 1. September 1939. From "Der Einsatz der operativen Luftwaffe gegen Polen. 1. Teil 22.VIII - 5.IX.1939".
It's well covered in Speidel's work, just adding few details and untranslated german text for orders:

Das Wetter hatte sich inzwischen verschlechtert. [...] Da der geplante Angriff auf Warschau nur bei geeigneter Wetterlage geplant war, erließ der Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe an Luftflotten 1 und 4 5,50 Uhr folgende Weisung:
"Angriff "Wasserkante" findet heute nicht statt. Kampf gegen polnische Luftwaffe, insbesondere Flughäfen um Warschau ist fortzusetzen, daneben Unterstützung des Heeres in vorgesehener Form-".
[...]
Der Befehlshaber der Luftflotte 1 erteilte dem Kampfgeschwader 27 für den Nachmittagsangriff auf die Flughäfen bei Warschau und auf die Polnische Oberste Heeresleitung 13,25 Uhr folgende Befehl:
"Kampfgeschwader 27 greift 16,30 Uhr (über dem Ziel) an:
1.) Flughafen Okecie,
2.) Flughafen Goclow,
3.) Munitionsanstalt Rembertow,
4.) Stab der Obersten Heeresleitung, vermutlich im Nordteil des Waldes Las Kabacky, 7 km südostwärts der Ziel N. 1076
Anflug über Funkfeuer Woldenberg, von hier Kurs Warschau.
Eine Zerstörergruppe aus Ostpreußen schützt Angriffe des Kampfgeschwaders 27 von 16,30 Uhr bis 16,45 Uhr und sicherte dessen Loslösung vom Feind.
Nach Rückkehr in Einfallhafen Werneuchen, Königsberg (Neumark) Neuhardenberg wird Kampfgeschwader 27 Flieger-Division 1 unterstellt."
[...]
Als am Nachmittag sich das Wetter in Nordpolen besserte, griffen die Kampfgeschwader des Luftwaffenkommandos Ostpreußen mit 11 Gruppen die Flugplätze Warschau-Okecie, Goclaw, Plock, Lida, Biala-Podlaska, Munitionslager Fort Bema.
Die Rundfunksender Babice und Lazy wurden angegriffen, weil die nach Meldung der Heeresgruppe Nord Befehle der Polnischen Heeresleitung in verschlüsselter Form verbreiteten.
[...]
Da wegen der Wetterlage ein einwandfreies Bild über die Belegung der Flugplätze und über die Angriffserfolge am 1.9. nicht gewonnen werden konnte, gab der Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe für den nächsten Tag folgende Weisung:
"Luftflottenkommando 1 und 4 setzen am 2.9. den Kampf gegen die feindliche Luftwaffe fort. Durch fortgesetzte Wetteraufklärung sind besonders die Flugplätze um Warschau und Posen zu überwachen, und wenn möglich sofort durch startbereite Kampfgruppen anzugreifen. Das Vorgehen des Heeres ist nachhaltig zu unterstützen. Hierbei sind die Eisenbahnstörziele in die Angriffe mit einzubeziehen. Darüber hinaus sind Angriffe auf die Rundfunksender Warschau, Thorn, Lodz, Radom, Posen, Lemberg und Krakau durchzuführen. Für den Nachmittag ist der Angriff "Wasserkante" beabsichtigt".
Diese Weisung wurde weil der polnische Aufmarsch inzwischen als vollendet erkannt war, wie folgt geändert:
"Unter Abänderung der Weisung für den 2.9. entfällt der Kampf gegen die Eisenbahnstörziele. Statt dessen ist der Kampf gegen rückwärtige feindliche Ansammlungen und Kolonnen zu führen.
Bei dem für den Nachmittag vorgesehenen Angriff "Wasserkante" sind Ziele in dicht besiedelten Stadtteilen auszusparen. Damit entfällt der Angriff auf alle im Stadtgebiet Praga liegenden Ziele."
[...]
Am späten Abend wurde der Angriff auf Warschau abgesagt und die Einstellung der Vorbereitungen hierfür befohlen.



Attacks on 1. Sept by Luftflotte 1:

09,00 II.(K)/L.G.1 Okecie "Hallen in Brand"
cover by I.(Z)/L.G.1

17,15 II./L.G.1 Okecie "Treffer: Südrand Ziel gute Treffer"
17,15 III./L.G.1 Okecie-Mokotow "gute Treffer"
cover by I.(Z)/L.G.1

17,15 I./Stuka 1 Babice and Lacy "Störung im Sendebetr. beobachtet"

17,30 I./K.G.27 Okecie "Rollfeld und PZL-Werk"
17,30 II./K.G.27 Goclaw "Südrand Platz, Gebäude getroffen"
17,30 III/K.G.27 Rembertow? "Waffen- und Mun.-Depot, Bema, Bomben im Ziel"
cover by I./Z.G.1


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