Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 974
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 26 Apr 2021 07:07

SpicyJuan wrote:
26 Apr 2021 06:15
daveshoup2MD wrote:
26 Apr 2021 06:06
Your question - Which aircraft do you think would've been the "best" if properly developed?
So why did you bring in the He 177 at all when it was not mentioned in the OP?
The OP includes the cartoon of the supposed He 277. None of the German heavy bomber designs were equivalent to their US and British counterparts.

User avatar
SpicyJuan
Member
Posts: 258
Joined: 14 Mar 2015 02:08
Location: Luxemburg

Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by SpicyJuan » 26 Apr 2021 13:51

daveshoup2MD wrote:
26 Apr 2021 07:07
SpicyJuan wrote:
26 Apr 2021 06:15
daveshoup2MD wrote:
26 Apr 2021 06:06
Your question - Which aircraft do you think would've been the "best" if properly developed?
So why did you bring in the He 177 at all when it was not mentioned in the OP?
The OP includes the cartoon of the supposed He 277.
The He 277 was basically an entirely new design sharing remarkably little with the He 177. If you know so little about the subject, why do you bother making such strong and wrong claims like...
daveshoup2MD wrote:
26 Apr 2021 07:07
None of the German heavy bomber designs were equivalent to their US and British counterparts.
As I showed in the massive spreadsheet, this is not true at all, the He 177 was equal to its contemporary bombers. As for German counterparts to the B-29, my OP also shows this to be false. You can debate that those are estimates and that none of those designs would have matched their estimates, but you cannot say the designs themselves were not equivalent or even superior to many allied bombers.

reedwh52
Member
Posts: 90
Joined: 31 Mar 2014 20:42

Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by reedwh52 » 26 Apr 2021 23:42

Just as a comment. The original question dealt with comparisons between designs for the Amerika bomber and devolved from there, with comparisons between Allied & German contemporaries. However, the . term contemporary is somewhat misleading. The actual contemporaries based on first flight in the US were the B29, B32 and B36. The B.17 first flew more than seven years prior to the first flight of either the Ju.390 or Me.264.

The B.29 flew 3 months before the Me.264.

Model First flight
Ta 400 N/A
Fw 238 N/A
He 277 N/A
Ju 390 10/20/1943
Me 264 12/23/1942

B_17 7/28/1935
B.29 9/21/1942
B36 8/8/1946
B.32 9/7/1942

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 974
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 27 Apr 2021 05:57

SpicyJuan wrote:
26 Apr 2021 13:51
[
As I showed in the massive spreadsheet, this is not true at all, the He 177 was equal to its contemporary bombers. As for German counterparts to the B-29, my OP also shows this to be false. You can debate that those are estimates and that none of those designs would have matched their estimates, but you cannot say the designs themselves were not equivalent or even superior to many allied bombers.
Did any German four-engined bomber designed and built in the 1930s and 1940s "match their estimates"?

A significant - some would say the most significant - element of any successful design is that it can be manufactured and put into service?

"Design exercises" are just that.

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 974
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 27 Apr 2021 05:58

reedwh52 wrote:
26 Apr 2021 23:42
Just as a comment. The original question dealt with comparisons between designs for the Amerika bomber and devolved from there, with comparisons between Allied & German contemporaries. However, the . term contemporary is somewhat misleading. The actual contemporaries based on first flight in the US were the B29, B32 and B36. The B.17 first flew more than seven years prior to the first flight of either the Ju.390 or Me.264.

The B.29 flew 3 months before the Me.264.

Model First flight
Ta 400 N/A
Fw 238 N/A
He 277 N/A
Ju 390 10/20/1943
Me 264 12/23/1942

B_17 7/28/1935
B.29 9/21/1942
B36 8/8/1946
B.32 9/7/1942
Those N/As are doing a lot of work, aren't they? ;)

Or to turn it around, the B-17's German contemporary was the He. 111...

User avatar
SpicyJuan
Member
Posts: 258
Joined: 14 Mar 2015 02:08
Location: Luxemburg

Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by SpicyJuan » 27 Apr 2021 12:33

daveshoup2MD wrote:
27 Apr 2021 05:58
reedwh52 wrote:
26 Apr 2021 23:42
Just as a comment. The original question dealt with comparisons between designs for the Amerika bomber and devolved from there, with comparisons between Allied & German contemporaries. However, the . term contemporary is somewhat misleading. The actual contemporaries based on first flight in the US were the B29, B32 and B36. The B.17 first flew more than seven years prior to the first flight of either the Ju.390 or Me.264.

The B.29 flew 3 months before the Me.264.

Model First flight
Ta 400 N/A
Fw 238 N/A
He 277 N/A
Ju 390 10/20/1943
Me 264 12/23/1942

B_17 7/28/1935
B.29 9/21/1942
B36 8/8/1946
B.32 9/7/1942
Those N/As are doing a lot of work, aren't they? ;)

Or to turn it around, the B-17's German contemporary was the He. 111...
You don’t know what “contemporary” means, do you? It’s both time and class of airplane. In no way was the He 111 designed to be a heavy or strategic bomber. But you knew this already and are being disingenuous.

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 974
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 28 Apr 2021 04:45

SpicyJuan wrote:
27 Apr 2021 12:33
You don’t know what “contemporary” means, do you? It’s both time and class of airplane. In no way was the He 111 designed to be a heavy or strategic bomber. But you knew this already and are being disingenuous.
No, "contemporary" is defined by time. You're thinking of "comparable."

Two different meanings.

See:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... %20or,noun

contemporary - existing or happening in the same time period : from the same time period

comparable - capable of or suitable for comparison; meaning "an examination of two or more items to establish similarities and dissimilarities"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comparable

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 779
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 00:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: There IS a "real He 177B" Typenblatt drawing in the Griehl/Dressel book...

Post by Simon Gunson » 22 Dec 2021 09:27

SpicyJuan wrote:
22 Sep 2015 02:58
Simon Gunson wrote:The He 274 was Germany's preferred choice and was intended to be the real Amerika Bomber.
I'm quite sure that it was not. The Me 264 was the original preference, but evolved into the He 277. Besides, the 274 didn't even have enough range to reach Amerika with IFR.
I have on good authority from a person who can't be named that Griehl was pressured by German authorities to delete & amend information gathered in research so I suggest one keeps in mind that he was arbitrarily limited in what he was permitted to reveal. Even to this day the German Government is highly sensitive to disclosures of some ww2 issues. I regret my inability to name the source, but suffice to say there is more untold by Griehl in his research material than was disclosed. Some will choose to disagree with this comment or seek to argue with it, but that can't be helped. take it or leave it as you choose.

Would you mind being a bit more specific on what type of information was left out? Did he perhaps include it in his book "Luftwaffe Over America"? I find it a little suspect that Griehl was pressured whereas Dieter Herwig, the author of Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Strategic Bombers, and the overall tone of his book is Nazi-sympathetic, yet was originally released in German.
Presuming that IFR (ie Internal Fuel Reseves) was an obstacle to using the He177 is erroneous logic. Milch records in his diary that refueling at Greenland or towing a fuel trailer were options considered for the Amerika bomber and then in 2005 a former He177 navigator revealed in 2005 that five He177 converted with enlarged bomb bays were prepared for the New York mission and they managed to perform the mission with Contra-rotating propellers. This is a novel possibility which few if anybody ever considers.


The Me264 was severely underpowered and at full gross weight required a sealed runway in excess of 2,600m, or less distance only when equipped with RATO
as equipped the Ar234:


Image

RLM concluded however that the Me264 was far too dangerous to operate heavily laden with Rocket Assisted Take Off.
Put simply its engines were too underpowered. I have seen proposals by Swiss firm Brown, Boverie & Cie to install large turboprops on the Me.264 with contra rotating propellers reminiscent of the Tu-95 Bear. As we shall see, there is more than a coincidental link between the Nazi New York bomber and Tupolev's Tu-95 Bear The Me.264 Amerika bomber may be a common ancestor between the the Tu95 and He177. The Tu-95 obtains exceptional range from Contra-rotating propellers. The AK177 was proposed to be an He177 with Contra-rotating propellers.

Image


indeed, in his wartime Diary Milk noted it was more preferable to bomb USA and then ditch the aircraft to await capture and internment. Milch noted the High Command favored landing an aircraft in Greenland to refuel it there. [Erhard Milch diary] Landing a bomb laden aircraft on the outbound flight was considered suicidal by Milch. Another possibility is several He177 were tested flying with a Fieseler P 21A winged fuel trailer:

Image

In 2005, He177 navigator Peter Brill disclosed he was trained in celestial navigation for an attack on New York. I cut & pasted the 2005 article directly into a Microsoft Word document, but failed to save the link. Today in 2021, i can't find the link again. Peter however still has interviews featured on Youtube.

Image

https://cinando.com/?ReturnUrl=%2Fen%2F ... %2FDetail

Peter Brill noted He177 aircraft prepared for the New York mission had an enlarged bomb bay big enough to accommodate a car.

Image

Image


Image

Image

Gogle translation from German:

Aircraft and crews were made available for this since 1943. Peter Brill reported on April 2, 2005 at a conference in Sabadell about his service as an Air Force pilot that he was selected for a special mission after completing his course at a flight school. April 2005 at a conference in Sabadell on his service as an Air Force pilot that he is after the end of his course at a flight school for a special selected.
He was to be trained in astronavigation for He-177s, which were intended to bomb New York.

The contemporary witness AK saw four He-177s standing in Sprottau when he was drafted into the Air Force at the end of 1943 and was supposed to be trained as a fighter pilot.
He should be in astro navigation for He-177 training, which were designed to bomb New York. The witness saw four AK-177 He is in Sprottau, the end of 1943 when he was collected on Air Force fighter pilot and to be trained.

Two propeller turbines with counter Vierblattpropellern should be read in conjunction with oversized fuel supply for sufficient range and speed of care. What happened to the "He-177" American bombers from Sprottau is uncertain. What to do with the> I-177 <-bombers from America Sprottau happened is uncertain. According to the information provided by the witness, they probably remained in Sprottau and, if not destroyed beforehand, fell into the hands of the Russians. He himself saw the four aircraft for the last time in the summer of 1944, when he was assigned to the paratroopers. According to the witnesses they were probably in Sprottau


Image

The machines were intended to fly non-stop to New York. The machines had been designed, in the non-stop flight to New York to fly. The machines, hidden under camouflage nets, would have had a huge bomb bay in which there would have been room for a car. The hidden camouflage net machine had an enormous bomb bay has in place a car would have been. Two propeller turbines with counter-rotating four-blade propellers, together with an increased fuel supply, should ensure sufficient range and speed. Two propeller turbines with counter Vierblattpropellern should be read in conjunction with oversized fuel supply for sufficient range and speed of care. What happened to the "He-177" American bombers from Sprottau is uncertain. What to do with the> I-177 <-bombers from America Sprottau happened is uncertain. According to the information provided by the witness, they probably remained in Sprottau and, if not destroyed


Sprottau is now in Poland 240 miles west of Warsaw,or 114 miles Southeast of Berlin

Image

Original- untranslated text
Flugzeuge und Besatzungen wurden seit 1943 dafür zur Verfügung gestellt. Aircraft and crews have been since 1943 were made available. So berichtete Peter Brill am 2. Peter Brill reported on 2 April 2005 auf einer Konferenz in Sabadell über seinen Dienst als Luftwaffenpilot, daß er nach Ende seines Kurses auf einer Flugschule für einen Sondereinsatz ausgewählt wurde. April 2005 at a conference in Sabadell on his service as an Air Force pilot that he is after the end of his course at a flight school for a special selected. Er sollte dazu in Astronavigation für He-177 ausgebildet werden, die dafür vorgesehen waren, New York zu bombardieren. Der Zeitzeuge AK sah vier He-177 in Sprottau stehen, als er Ende 1943 zur Luftwaffe eingezogen wurde und zum Jagdflieger ausgebildet werden sollte. He should be in astro navigation for He-177 training, which were designed, to bomb New York. The witness saw four AK-177 He is in Sprottau, the end of 1943 when he was collected on Air Force fighter pilot and to be trained.

Die Maschinen seien dafür vorgesehen gewesen, im Non Stop-Flug nach New York zu fliegen . The machines had been designed, in the non-stop flight to New York to fly. Die unter Tarnnetzen verborgenen Maschinen hätten über einen riesigen Bombenschacht verfügt, in dem ein Auto Platz gehabt hätte . The hidden Tarnnetz machine had an enormous bomb bay has in place a car would have been. Zwei Propellerturbinen mit gegenläufigen Vierblattpropellern sollten zusammen mit vergrößertem Treibstoffvorrat für genügend Reichweite und Geschwindigkeit sorgen. Two propeller turbines with counter Vierblattpropellern should be read in conjunction with oversized fuel supply for sufficient range and speed of care. Was mit den >He-177<-Amerikabombern von Sprottau geschah, ist unsicher. What to do with the> I-177 <-bombers from America Sprottau happened is uncertain. Nach Informationen des Zeugen blieben sie wahrscheinlich in Sprottau und fielen, sofern sie nicht vorher zerstört wurden, den Russen in die Hände. Er selbst sah die vier Flugzeuge zum letzten Mal im Sommer 1944, als er zu den Fallschirmjägern abkommandiert wurde. According to the witnesses they were probably in Sprottau and
Contra-rotating propellers

Brill mentioned four He177 with an enlarged bomb ba, two "turbines" and contrarotating four-blade propellors. Is it pure coincidence that the Soviets developed long range planes with contrarotating propellors?
Did they capture contrarotating propellor technology from Nazi long range bombers?

Image

The main advantages of a pair of contra-rotating propellers are the torque on an aircraft's engine is effectively cancelled out. it has been found that these propellers are between 6% and 16% more efficient than a normal propeller, thus they provide more range without costing more fuel. The main disadvantages are they can be very noisy and the weight of the gearbox drive units can be quite high. Peter Brill's disclosure about the AK177 may have solved several WW2 mysteries including the New York flight.
The four aircraft mentioned may have included He 177 A-5s built by Heinkel (HWO) Oranienburg - W.Nr. 550001 to 550006 (5 aircraft)

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 974
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 10 Jan 2022 06:17

"What happened to the "He-177" American bombers from Sprottau is uncertain. What to do with the> I-177 <-bombers from America Sprottau happened is uncertain."

Whole lot of uncertainty going on... ;)

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”