I am trying to determine the origin of a rifle stock stamp that is present on a few of my rifles. The stamp is 'LK5' and is assumed by some to signify 'Luftgau Kommando 5,' but in all of the documentation I've been able to locate, Luftgau is always abbreviate as 'Lg' or 'LG.' A digitized archive index I found further abbreviated Luftgau Kommando as 'L.G.K.,' not LK. I've read the Lexicon der Wehrmacht listing for Luftgau Kommando and this thread in an attempt to clarify things:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=64101
Neither defined 'LK' or identified it. Is anyone familiar with this abbreviation and what it means? Is it simply, 'Luftkommando 5?' I've also seen a 'LK3' marking, but only once. Thanks in advance for your time.
Pat
Luftkommando 5 (?) questions
Luftkommando 5 (?) questions
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.
Re: Luftkommando 5 (?) questions
LK or L.K. is the abbreviation for Luftkreis, according to the British Air Ministry's Manual of German Air Force Terminology compile by A.I.12 and issued in 1945-46.
Luftkreis 5
(Air Force District or Service Area)
Kommandierender General und Befehlshaber:
Gen.d.Flieger Karl Eberth (1 Apr 34 - 1 Oct 35)
Gen.Maj. Hugo Sperrle (1 Oct 35 - 1 Nov 36)
Gen.Lt. Ludwig Wolff (1 Nov 36 - 4 Feb 38)
Formation and History. (Apr 34 - Feb 38)
Formed 1 April 1934 in Munich as Luftkreiskommando V. Subordinated all flying and Flak units stationed in Luftgau V, VII and XIII (Bavaria, Baden, Württemberg, Hesse, Hesse-Nassau and the southern Rhineland). Designation changed to Luftkreis 5 on 12 Oct 37. Used to form Luftwaffengruppenkommando 3 on 4 Feb 38.
Luftkreis 5
(Air Force District or Service Area)
Kommandierender General und Befehlshaber:
Gen.d.Flieger Karl Eberth (1 Apr 34 - 1 Oct 35)
Gen.Maj. Hugo Sperrle (1 Oct 35 - 1 Nov 36)
Gen.Lt. Ludwig Wolff (1 Nov 36 - 4 Feb 38)
Formation and History. (Apr 34 - Feb 38)
Formed 1 April 1934 in Munich as Luftkreiskommando V. Subordinated all flying and Flak units stationed in Luftgau V, VII and XIII (Bavaria, Baden, Württemberg, Hesse, Hesse-Nassau and the southern Rhineland). Designation changed to Luftkreis 5 on 12 Oct 37. Used to form Luftwaffengruppenkommando 3 on 4 Feb 38.
Re: Luftkommando 5 (?) questions
Hi Larry,
Thanks for the quick and informative reply. Do you have any information on the unit from about 1940-1945? The vast majority of the rifles and carbines on which this stamp appears are French in origin, and almost all are captured weapons. As a result, it has been theorized that the stamp meant Luftgau Kommando 5, which was reconstituted from the remains of the shattered Luftgau Kommando Westfrankreich in September 1944. I tried to locate a map of Luftkreise geographical areas of responsibility, but came up short.
Best,
Pat
Thanks for the quick and informative reply. Do you have any information on the unit from about 1940-1945? The vast majority of the rifles and carbines on which this stamp appears are French in origin, and almost all are captured weapons. As a result, it has been theorized that the stamp meant Luftgau Kommando 5, which was reconstituted from the remains of the shattered Luftgau Kommando Westfrankreich in September 1944. I tried to locate a map of Luftkreise geographical areas of responsibility, but came up short.
Best,
Pat
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.
Re: Luftkommando 5 (?) questions
Pat - given your new information about the rifles being captured and of French origin, Luftgaukdo. V below is the only logical possibility. The markings must be the result of a shortcut taken by someone who didn't want to take the time to use the correct abbreviation, i.e., L.G.K. or Lg.K.
Luftgaukommando V (2d Formation)
(FpN: none assigned)
Kommandierender General:
Gen.d.Flieger Karl Drum (6 Sep 44 - 21 Sep 44)
Gen. Lt. Herbert Rieckhoff (21 Sep 44 - 2 Apr 45)
Subordination:
Luftflottenkdo. Reich (6 Sep 44 - 2 Apr 45)
Subordinate Commands:
Kommando Flughafenbereiche (airfield regional commands) and Fliegerhorstkommandanturen (air base commands), Luftnachrichten (air force signals), Sanitäts (medical), Flak (antiaircraft), civil air defense, supply, schools, replacements and sundry other ground service and support commands, staffs and units located within its territory of authority. These changed frequently and in the absence of surviving source documentation it is not possible to list them accurately or completely.
Formation and History. (Sep 44 - Apr 45)
Ordered formed 6 September 1944 in Stuttgart for the Baden-Württemberg area from Stab/Feld-Luftgaukdo. Westfrankreich, then located at Strasbourg in Alsace on the last leg of its withdrawal from France. By 18 September, most of the personnel had reached Stuttgart. Since air operations and the airfield infrastructure in southwestern Germany were relatively limited compared to other areas of the country, the Luftgau was primarily concerned with Flak defenses around Stuttgart and other cities within its territory. The Luftgaukdo. was ordered disbanded on 2 April 1945, and the next day left Stuttgart and transferred to Baltringen/28 km S of Ulm. Its responsibilities were taken over by an Aussenstelle (branch) of Luftgaukdo. VII.
© by Henry L. deZeng IV (Work in Progress).
(1st Draft 2006)
L.
Luftgaukommando V (2d Formation)
(FpN: none assigned)
Kommandierender General:
Gen.d.Flieger Karl Drum (6 Sep 44 - 21 Sep 44)
Gen. Lt. Herbert Rieckhoff (21 Sep 44 - 2 Apr 45)
Subordination:
Luftflottenkdo. Reich (6 Sep 44 - 2 Apr 45)
Subordinate Commands:
Kommando Flughafenbereiche (airfield regional commands) and Fliegerhorstkommandanturen (air base commands), Luftnachrichten (air force signals), Sanitäts (medical), Flak (antiaircraft), civil air defense, supply, schools, replacements and sundry other ground service and support commands, staffs and units located within its territory of authority. These changed frequently and in the absence of surviving source documentation it is not possible to list them accurately or completely.
Formation and History. (Sep 44 - Apr 45)
Ordered formed 6 September 1944 in Stuttgart for the Baden-Württemberg area from Stab/Feld-Luftgaukdo. Westfrankreich, then located at Strasbourg in Alsace on the last leg of its withdrawal from France. By 18 September, most of the personnel had reached Stuttgart. Since air operations and the airfield infrastructure in southwestern Germany were relatively limited compared to other areas of the country, the Luftgau was primarily concerned with Flak defenses around Stuttgart and other cities within its territory. The Luftgaukdo. was ordered disbanded on 2 April 1945, and the next day left Stuttgart and transferred to Baltringen/28 km S of Ulm. Its responsibilities were taken over by an Aussenstelle (branch) of Luftgaukdo. VII.
© by Henry L. deZeng IV (Work in Progress).
(1st Draft 2006)
L.
Re: Luftkommando 5 (?) questions
Thank you Larry, maybe that explains it. Do you have any idea which of deZeng's books that is from? As I noted, it has been assumed that it referred to Luftgau Kommando V, while another person suggested it could also refer to an unspecified 'Lehr Kommando,' in which the captured arms could be used for training purposes.
While most were originally French, there is also an SVT-40 and a Greek contract FN Model 1930 Mauser rifle that have the same stamp. Last summer I saw a LK3 marked K98k, but this was on a mis-matched stock. Next week I will receive a (clearly) German-modified Yugoslav Model 1924 rifle that also has the LK5 stamp. While there are a variety of rifles and carbines so marked, the French weapons are very much in the majority and frequently show other objective indicators of German use. Relegating foreign weapons like these to ground support units also makes sense, as they would be engaged largely in uncontested, static duties for which a consistent and renewable ammunition supply and expenditure would both be low.
Having the unit's dates of operation is very interesting, as the date of formation of the unit offers a terminus post quem for when the weapons would have been stamped, and also indicates that the weapons would have come into the possession of US troops (these are all bring-back weapons) in southern Germany specifically, not just 'the ETO.' That's an element of specificity that is lacking in virtually all other bring-back weapons that don't have a verifiable history of recovery behind them, such as bona-fide capture papers.
Thank you again, Larry!
While most were originally French, there is also an SVT-40 and a Greek contract FN Model 1930 Mauser rifle that have the same stamp. Last summer I saw a LK3 marked K98k, but this was on a mis-matched stock. Next week I will receive a (clearly) German-modified Yugoslav Model 1924 rifle that also has the LK5 stamp. While there are a variety of rifles and carbines so marked, the French weapons are very much in the majority and frequently show other objective indicators of German use. Relegating foreign weapons like these to ground support units also makes sense, as they would be engaged largely in uncontested, static duties for which a consistent and renewable ammunition supply and expenditure would both be low.
Having the unit's dates of operation is very interesting, as the date of formation of the unit offers a terminus post quem for when the weapons would have been stamped, and also indicates that the weapons would have come into the possession of US troops (these are all bring-back weapons) in southern Germany specifically, not just 'the ETO.' That's an element of specificity that is lacking in virtually all other bring-back weapons that don't have a verifiable history of recovery behind them, such as bona-fide capture papers.
Thank you again, Larry!
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.
Re: Luftkommando 5 (?) questions
Pleased to have been of some help, Pat.
My 4 books published 2008 to 2013 dealt with bomber, dive-bomber and ground attack flying units. I have summarized histories of all other flying and non-flying units of the Luftwaffe down to the level of the independent Zug, but these were never published and today are either on my computer or still in typed and handwritten note form on the old Oxford 4" x 6" line index cards.
A Lehrkommando 5/Lehrkdo. 5/Lehr-Kdo. 5 certainly sounds like a nice fit and "L" was an official abbreviation for Lehr. But a "K" was not an authorized abbreviation for Kommando, which was abbreviated "Kdo." I have never seen any KStN (TO&E) units officially set up and recognized by the Organisations-Abt./Genst.d.Lw. that had the designation "Lehrkommando" followed by a number.
There is another possibility, too: "Lehrkompanie". The letter "K" was authorized for use as an abbreviation for "Kompanie". So, both the incorrect Lehrkommando and the correct Lehrkompanie never existed as a series of units authorized and recognized by Berlin, it is entirely possible and even probable that such units might have been set up within some larger command or unit to fulfill some short-term training purpose. If this premise is accepted, then your rifles could have come from any where and we are right back at square one.
L.
My 4 books published 2008 to 2013 dealt with bomber, dive-bomber and ground attack flying units. I have summarized histories of all other flying and non-flying units of the Luftwaffe down to the level of the independent Zug, but these were never published and today are either on my computer or still in typed and handwritten note form on the old Oxford 4" x 6" line index cards.
A Lehrkommando 5/Lehrkdo. 5/Lehr-Kdo. 5 certainly sounds like a nice fit and "L" was an official abbreviation for Lehr. But a "K" was not an authorized abbreviation for Kommando, which was abbreviated "Kdo." I have never seen any KStN (TO&E) units officially set up and recognized by the Organisations-Abt./Genst.d.Lw. that had the designation "Lehrkommando" followed by a number.
There is another possibility, too: "Lehrkompanie". The letter "K" was authorized for use as an abbreviation for "Kompanie". So, both the incorrect Lehrkommando and the correct Lehrkompanie never existed as a series of units authorized and recognized by Berlin, it is entirely possible and even probable that such units might have been set up within some larger command or unit to fulfill some short-term training purpose. If this premise is accepted, then your rifles could have come from any where and we are right back at square one.
L.
Re: Luftkommando 5 (?) questions
Larry,
My apologies, I didn't realize those were your books!
No problem being back at square one, I just want to get at the truth. As a matter of fact, I had consulted two US documents regarding German military abbreviations and both of them listed 'L' as including 'Lehr' among the possibilities but never 'Luftgau.' That's what got me started on questioning the received wisdom of LK=Luftgau Kommando.
Your knowledge and experience are greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to share them both with me.
Best,
Pat
My apologies, I didn't realize those were your books!
No problem being back at square one, I just want to get at the truth. As a matter of fact, I had consulted two US documents regarding German military abbreviations and both of them listed 'L' as including 'Lehr' among the possibilities but never 'Luftgau.' That's what got me started on questioning the received wisdom of LK=Luftgau Kommando.
Your knowledge and experience are greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to share them both with me.
Best,
Pat
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.