Was Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring an Idiot?

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Scott Smith
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BORDER WARS and BORDERLINE ICONS...

Post by Scott Smith » 04 Jun 2002 04:37

Roberto wrote:And then there was the unprovoked aggression on 22 June 1941 against the Soviet Union ...
Not exactly unprovoked. The Soviets were massing forces at least defensively on the border in 1941, which even if it had not led to an attack by Stalin in 1942 at a favorable opportunity, it would have at the very least tied-up Germany's divisions, and thus prolonged the war in the West. Molotov made it clear to Hitler in the autumn of 1940 that the Soviet Union wanted a foothold in Romania, which would then control German supplies of natural oil, and that was strategically intolerable.

Still, I think there was a better chance for Germany working out an acceptable deal with Stalin (who was a realist) than with Churchill (who was just a foolish old drunk). Any toad could have fought Hitler, and if successful, wound-up being dubbed a Great Man.
:roll:

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Roberto
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Re: BORDER WARS and BORDERLINE ICONS...

Post by Roberto » 04 Jun 2002 15:54

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:And then there was the unprovoked aggression on 22 June 1941 against the Soviet Union ...

Not exactly unprovoked. The Soviets were massing forces at least defensively on the border in 1941, which even if it had not led to an attack by Stalin in 1942 at a favorable opportunity, it would have at the very least tied-up Germany's divisions, and thus prolonged the war in the West.
Now that's what I call a provocation. :lol:
Molotov made it clear to Hitler in the autumn of 1940 that the Soviet Union wanted a foothold in Romania, which would then control German supplies of natural oil, and that was strategically intolerable.
And here's another illustrative piece of warlord thinking. :aliengray

Anyway, the Führer had written the following decades before in Mein Kampf:
[...]

We National Socialists have to go still further. The right to territory may become a duty when a great nation seems destined to go under unless its territory be extended. And that is particularly true when the nation in question is not some little group of negro people but the Germanic mother of all the life which has given cultural shape to the modern world. Germany will either become a World Power or will not continue to exist at all. But in order to become a World Power it needs that territorial magnitude which gives it the necessary importance to-day and assures the existence of its citizens.

Therefore we National Socialists have purposely drawn a line through the line of conduct followed by pre-War Germany in foreign policy. We put an end to the perpetual Germanic march towards the South and West of Europe and turn our eyes towards the lands of the East. We finally put a stop to the colonial and trade policy of pre-War times and pass over to the territorial policy of the future.

But when we speak of new territory in Europe to-day we must principally think of Russia and the border States subject to her.

Destiny itself seems to wish to point out the way for us here. In delivering Russia over to Bolshevism, Fate robbed the Russian people of that intellectual class which had once created the Russian State and were the guarantee of its existence. For the Russian State was not organized by the constructive political talent of the Slav element in Russia, but was much more a marvellous exemplification of the capacity for State-building possessed by the Germanic element in a race of inferior worth. Thus were many powerful Empires created all over the earth. More often than once inferior races with Germanic organizers and rulers as their leaders became formidable States and continued to exist as long as the racial nucleus remained which had originally created each respective State. For centuries Russia owed the source of its livelihood as a State to the Germanic nucleus of its governing class. But this nucleus is now almost wholly broken up and abolished. The Jew has taken its place. Just as it is impossible for the Russian to shake off the Jewish yoke by exerting his own powers, so, too, it is impossible for the Jew to keep this formidable State in existence for any long period of time. He himself is by no means an organizing element, but rather a ferment of decomposition. This colossal Empire in the East is ripe for dissolution. And the end of the Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a State. We are chosen by Destiny to be the witnesses of a catastrophe which will afford the strongest confirmation of the nationalist theory of race.

But it is our task, and it is the mission of the National Socialist Movement, to develop in our people that political mentality which will enable them to realize that the aim which they must set to themselves for the fulfilment of their future must not be some wildly enthusiastic adventure in the footsteps of Alexander the Great but industrious labour with the German plough, for which the German sword will provide the soil.

[...]
Source of quote:

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 2ch14.html

So whatever perceived necessities of the moment hastened his decision, good old Adolf was doing something that it had always been his dream to do.
Still, I think there was a better chance for Germany working out an acceptable deal with Stalin (who was a realist)
Unfortunately he was also the leader of Bolshevik Judeo-Slav sub-humanry. No deal with him could therefore last, beneficial though
the Nazi-Soviet pact of 1939 was for both sides.
than with Churchill (who was just a foolish old drunk). Any toad could have fought Hitler and wound up being dubbed a Great Man.
Not that I have any particular sympathies for Churchill, but who calls him a "toad" while considering the Führer a remarkable statesman who gambled and failed should seriously examine his perception of proportions and reality, in my opinion.
My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say, however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect, but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.
"Revisionist" grand dragon Greg Raven, as quoted under

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/r/ ... -on-hitler

Keep 'em coming, Mr. Volksempfänger.

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Re: BORDER WARS and BORDERLINE ICONS...

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Jun 2002 03:09

Roberto wrote:Not that I have any particular sympathies for Churchill, but who calls him a "toad" while considering the Führer a remarkable statesman who gambled and failed should seriously examine his perception of proportions and reality, in my opinion.
This might come as a big surprise but we do not agree on a lot of things.
:mrgreen:

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Re: BORDER WARS and BORDERLINE ICONS...

Post by Roberto » 05 Jun 2002 09:28

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:Not that I have any particular sympathies for Churchill, but who calls him a "toad" while considering the Führer a remarkable statesman who gambled and failed should seriously examine his perception of proportions and reality, in my opinion.
This might come as a big surprise but we do not agree on a lot of things.
Could that be related to it being damn hard for any rational being to nod to Smith's rather transparent Nazi propaganda?

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GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Jun 2002 11:38

Roberto wrote:Could that be related to it being damn hard for any rational being to nod to Smith's rather transparent Nazi propaganda?
Propaganda? You mean, How the Grinch Stole SPAM?

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Re: end opinion

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Jun 2002 11:49

Galahad wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:After 1940, yes, because he became lazy and was not competent technically to solve the complex problems that were presented to the Luftwaffe after 1940.
Despite picking of various nits, it looks awfully much like you agree with my overall estimation.....that in the end, Goering was a failure as head of the Luftwaffe.
No, the Luftwaffe did what it could and mostly what it was asked to do. It did not win or lose the war. The same can be said for the Kriegsmarine and nobody rational would say that Raeder and Dönitz were incompetent or failures. Göring was an exceptional head of the Luftwaffe prior to 1940, and he was a good but not great strategist. Yes, he should have been replaced in 1940 BEFORE the Battle of Britain--to rest on his laurels--because events and the grave overall situation had exceeded his competence. This alone would not have won the war, however, and it may not have improved the situation either if Göring's successors made similar mistakes--and that was easy to do given the complexities and dynamics of the German predicament. Hermann Göring was hardly a failure!

I'm glad that somebody actually voted for no. 1, but I would have replaced HG in 1940 as head of the Luftwaffe, so I voted for no. 3 instead.
:)

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Roberto
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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Roberto » 06 Jun 2002 11:51

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:Could that be related to it being damn hard for any rational being to nod to Smith's rather transparent Nazi propaganda?
Propaganda? You mean, How the Grinch Stole SPAM?

I mean this kind of stuff:

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Re: good pilot

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Jun 2002 12:04

Galahad wrote:"I don't think any of the options truly describe Goering. He wasn't a great pilot--though he was a good one"

I never said he wasn't a good pilot.
With 22 kills and having been squadron commander of an elite outfit when most pilots barely survived a few missions without crashing, I think Hermann Göring was a damned-GREAT pilot in the First World War. He flew as a commerical pilot briefly after the war. He was not even a pilot in the Second World War.

No, Göring was not a von Richthofen, Udet, Immelmann or Boelcke, but even average German pilots in WWI were necessarily GREAT pilots.
:)

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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Jun 2002 12:05

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:Could that be related to it being damn hard for any rational being to nod to Smith's rather transparent Nazi propaganda?
Propaganda? You mean, How the Grinch Stole SPAM?
I mean this kind of stuff: [Wahrheit]
The Truth will make you free, Roberto. Can I have a dreg of that heady mixture? :mrgreen:

VICTOR'S JUSTICE...

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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Roberto » 06 Jun 2002 12:13

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:Could that be related to it being damn hard for any rational being to nod to Smith's rather transparent Nazi propaganda?
Propaganda? You mean, How the Grinch Stole SPAM?
I mean this kind of stuff: [Wahrheit]

The Truth will make you free, Roberto.
I don't see myself imprisoned, unlike poor Smith:

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Could that be because I have no problem with looking at the facts and following the evidence where it leads?
Can I have a dreg of that heady mixture?
What mixture? The articles of faith of those who love the Führer and hate those he hated? I'd say Smith has enough of that inside his head.
VICTOR'S JUSTICE...
Not exactly undeserved by the fat pig:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judgoeri.htm

Well ... he did have sense of humor:
Nazi leader Hermann Goering joked about cannibalism in the camps, telling a diplomat that "in the camps for Russian prisoners of war, after having eaten everything possible, including the soles of their boots, they have begun to eat each other, and what is more serious, have also eaten a German sentry" (Dallin, German Rule in Russia, p. 415).
Source of quote:

http://www.gendercide.org/case_soviet.html
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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Jun 2002 14:16

Roberto wrote:I don't see myself imprisoned, unlike poor Smith.
Perhaps that is the problem! Maybe you need to first become aware of your inability to think outside of the box. 8O

Or, just go back to your Gendercide-sites, where I'm sure you will find all the answers to be had. :roll:
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:Can I have a dreg of that heady mixture?
What mixture?
You know, Dr. Doxey's patent-medicine for all that ails, or whatever it is called--that intoxicant known as Truth--the stuff that you have bravely beakered for the edification of we Internet swine.

Can't I have a sip? :P

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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Roberto » 06 Jun 2002 16:27

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:I don't see myself imprisoned, unlike poor Smith.

Perhaps that is the problem! Maybe you need to first become aware of your inability to think outside of the box.
Actually I'm unable to think or see myself inside one. Even with a teacher as proficient as Scott Smith.
Or, just go back to your Gendercide-sites, where I'm sure you will find all the answers to be had.
Not all, but many. Compared to the baloney you find on Smith's favorite "Revisionist" sites, any amount of information is quite a lot, anyway.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:Can I have a dreg of that heady mixture?

What mixture?

You know, Dr. Doxey's patent-medicine for all that ails, or whatever it is called--that intoxicant known as Truth--the stuff that you have bravely beakered for the edification of we Internet swine.

Can't I have a sip? :P

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I think you're mixing thing up, buddy. You're the quack who tries to sell such potions. And I like to use them for target practice.
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Ovidius » 16 Jun 2002 00:09

Roberto wrote:
VICTOR'S JUSTICE...
Not exactly undeserved by the fat pig:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judgoeri.htm

Well ... he did have sense of humor:
Nazi leader Hermann Goering joked about cannibalism in the camps, telling a diplomat that "in the camps for Russian prisoners of war, after having eaten everything possible, including the soles of their boots, they have begun to eat each other, and what is more serious, have also eaten a German sentry" (Dallin, German Rule in Russia, p. 415).
Source of quote:

http://www.gendercide.org/case_soviet.html
Wasn't it so !?

There is nothing to be said in mitigation. For Goering was often, indeed almost always, the moving force, second only to his leader. He was the leading war aggressor, both as political and as military leader; he was the director of the slave labour programme and the creator of the oppressive programme against the Jews and other races, at home and abroad. All of these crimes he has frankly admitted. On some specific cases there may be conflict of testimony, but in terms of the broad outline his own admissions are more than sufficiently wide to be conclusive of his guilt. His guilt is unique in its enormity.

Source of quote: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judgoeri.htm

His guilt was so unique that other 11 men were hanged alongside him. Hanged, not shot. Among them Keitel(for the orders concerning partisans, I suppose), Jodl, Kaltenbrunner etc. The figure that appeared rather strange in this gallery of guys subject to Victors' Justice was a very funny guy, Streicher by his name, who was not only hanged, but previously tortured. I guess that the pen in Streicher's hand was/is a more fierce weapon than a bomber over Coventry or a gun in a hand of an Einsatzgruppe man. :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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PATENT MEDICINE...

Post by Scott Smith » 16 Jun 2002 11:54

Okay, Roberto, I get it. I'm selling the Truth and you are shooting it down. Yeah, it's all clear now. :mrgreen:

Actually, I didn't realize that I was selling anything except a call to free-speech. But, you know where you can send my check!
:idea:

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opinion

Post by Galahad » 16 Jun 2002 13:05

Scott Smith writes: " I think Hermann Göring was a damned-GREAT pilot in the First World War."

That's your OPINION, and you are entitled to have it. The same as I'm entitled to my opinion that he was a good pilot, as opposed to being a great one.

Udet was great, Goering was good.

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