Was Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring an Idiot?

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Scott Smith
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Re: opinion

Post by Scott Smith » 16 Jun 2002 18:37

Galahad wrote:Scott Smith writes: " I think Hermann Göring was a damned-GREAT pilot in the First World War."

That's your OPINION, and you are entitled to have it. The same as I'm entitled to my opinion that he was a good pilot, as opposed to being a great one.

Udet was great, Goering was good.
Udet was exceptional with 62 victories, second only to the Red Baron with 80 confirmed kills.

Now, Eddie Rickenbacher was the greatest American ace with 22 kills, the same as Göring. Are you saying that Rickenbacher was not a GREAT pilot--just a good one?
:wink:

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Galahad
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Post by Galahad » 16 Jun 2002 18:53

Rickenbacker had 26 kills, and flew in combat a shorter time than did Goering.

And Udet publicly said that Goering had falsified his kill record.

You may think Goering was a fantastic pilot--I don't.

Do you have any other opinionated nits you want to pick?

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Scott Smith
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GREAT FIGHTER ACE GÖRING...

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Jun 2002 02:10

Galahad wrote:Rickenbacker had 26 kills, and flew in combat a shorter time than did Goering.

And Udet publicly said that Goering had falsified his kill record.

You may think Goering was a fantastic pilot--I don't.

Do you have any other opinionated nits you want to pick?
So, now Göring falsified his war-record? Wow, he must have had some gnarly powers to pull that one off. :roll:

Anyway, it is a mystery to my why you want to say that a German pilot with the Blue Max was not a GREAT pilot, just a GOOD pilot.

Even Max Immelmann himself only had 15 kills and ranks 102 out of 393 German aces, to Göring’s 56th place with 22 kills!

The great Generalfeldmarschall Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen ended his WWI career with only 8 kills.

And the great Generalfeldmarschall Robert Ritter von Greim, who succeeded Göring as Luftwaffe chief, slightly beats “Fat” Hermann with 28 kills and 38th place.

I stand corrected. Eddie Rickenbacker did have 26 kills, not 22 as I stated. (I looked up the spelling of his name as well.)

Here are some other interesting facts:

Rickenbacker is the ONLY U.S. ace who beats Göring’s score! The next is Gillet with 20 kills.

The great Frank Luke of Arizona had 18 kills and is in 6th place for American pilots.

Of course, we are not comparing anything but total scores here and, as you noted, the American pilots probably had fewer sorties.

But what about French and British pilots? Did they not have enough time for glory as well?

Göring’s 22 kills would have ranked him as 26th out of 607 English aces, and 11th out of 182 French aces. Comparable figures can be found for Canada, Austria-Hungary, Italy, and even Russia, where Göring beats all of the Tsar's flyboys!

Pretty impressive, I’d say.

Nevertheless, you have the right to your opinion as well.
:)

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Last edited by Scott Smith on 22 Jun 2002 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Galahad
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records and opinions

Post by Galahad » 17 Jun 2002 03:12

1. Ernst Udet made the allegation concerning Goerings kill tally. Since he knew and served with Goering, possibly he knew better than you what Goering's war record was.

Thought you DO seem to think that you know everything.

2. I'm glad you concede the point that I'm entitled to my opinion.

Now go on and make your large ego feel good and make another post concerning your OPINON on this and have the last word so you can feel appropriately superior. I'm done.

I've wasted enough time on it and on you.

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Scott Smith
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Re: records and opinions

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Jun 2002 04:43

Galahad wrote:1. Ernst Udet made the allegation concerning Goerings kill tally. Since he knew and served with Goering, possibly he knew better than you what Goering's war record was.

Thought you DO seem to think that you know everything.

2. I'm glad you concede the point that I'm entitled to my opinion.

Now go on and make your large ego feel good and make another post concerning your OPINON on this and have the last word so you can feel appropriately superior. I'm done.

I've wasted enough time on it and on you.
No need to get upset, Sir Galahad.

But I don't think Udet knows what he is talking about, assuming this is even true. It would be handy to know what your source is since Udet didn't live to write his memoirs and trash his boss. In any case, if it was Bruno Loerzer making the claim then perhaps there might be something to it, although it would still warrant skepticism.
:)

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Roberto
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Re: PATENT MEDICINE...

Post by Roberto » 20 Jun 2002 19:53

Scott Smith wrote:Okay, Roberto, I get it. I'm selling the Truth and you are shooting it down. Yeah, it's all clear now.
Exactly. This kind of "Truth":

Image

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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Roberto » 20 Jun 2002 20:08

Ovidius wrote:Among them Keitel(for the orders concerning partisans, I suppose),
Such as this one:
TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT 829-PS
Source: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Vol. III. USGPO, Washington, 1946, p.p.597-599
Keitel Order Concerning Ruthless Suppression of any
Resistance in Occupied USSR
TOP SECRET
COPY
The Chief of the OKW
WFST. / Abt. L (IV/Qu)
Nr. 002060/ 41 g. Kdos.
F. H. Qu., 16 September 1941
40 copies, 32nd copy
Subject: Communist insurrection in the occupied territories.
1. Since the campaign against Soviet Russia started there have been communist insurrections everywhere in the territories occupied by Germany. The actions range from propaganda and assaults against single members of the armed forces to open revolt and spreading guerilla warfare.
It should be noted that this is a mass movement which is centrally directed from Moscow and to which also the single and seemingly trifling incidents are to be ascribed occurring in areas which have been quiet so far.
Due to the manifold political and economic tensions in the occupied territories we must also expect nationalistic and other groups to take advantage of the situation and to instigate difficulties for the German occupation troops by joining the communist insurrection.
This way an increasing danger for the German conduct of the war arises which becomes apparent first by generally unsafe conditions for the occupation troops and already has led to troops being, detached to the main centers of the unrest.
2. Previous measures to counteract this general communist insurrection have proved inadequate. The Fuehrer has now ordered that everywhere the most drastic means are to be employed in order to quench the movement within the shortest time possible. Only in this manner which has always been employed successfully by great nations in the history of their conquests quiet can be restored.
3. The following directives are to be observed:
a. In each case of revolt against the German occupation force Communist sources are to be suspected regardIess of what the individual circumstances are.
b. To nip the plots in the bud the most drastic means are to be employed immediately at the first provocation in order to make the authority of the occupation force prevail and to prevent further spreading. Attention should be paid to the fact that a human life in the countries concerned often means nothing and only by unusual severity can a deterrent effect be achieved. In these cases the life of one German soldier must be atoned for by the death sentence for 50 to 100 communists, as a rule. The manner of execution shall further increase the deterrent effect.
The opposite procedure to use relatively mild punishment first and to do with the threat of more severe action as a deterrent is not in accordance with these principles and therefore should not be employed.
c. The political relationships between Germany and the respective country in question are irrelevant for the attitude of the military occupation authorities. To the contrary, it is to be considered and emphasized by propaganda that striking with energy will also liberate the native populations from communist criminals and result to their benefit. Clever propaganda of this kind consequently will not cause undesirable reactions of the friendly parts of the population on account of the severe measures against the communists.
d. Native men will generally be a failure in the execution of such measures of force. Their strengthening brings an increased danger for our own troops and therefore must not be allowed. However, prizes and rewards should be lavishly offered to the population in order to ensure its cooperation in a suitable way.
e. If as an exception court martial is to be opened in connection with communist revolts or other offenses against the German occupation force, the most drastic penalties are to be imposed. In such cases the death penalty only can be an actual means having deterrent effect. Particularly acts of espionage and sabotage and attempts to join a foreign army are, as a rule, to be punished with death. Also in cases of bearing arms without permission the death sentence is to be imposed in general.
4. The commanders in the occupied territories see to it that these principles are made known to all military offices without delay which have to deal with communist acts of revolt.
/s/ Keitel
Certified
[signature illegible]
M. V. J.
Source of quote:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/USSR4.htm

Emphasis is mine

The judgment against Keitel can be read under

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Keitel1.htm

Ovidius wrote:Jodl, Kaltenbrunner etc.
Judgments under

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Jodl1.htm

and

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Kaltenbrunner.htm

Ovidius wrote: The figure that appeared rather strange in this gallery of guys subject to Victors' Justice was a very funny guy, Streicher by his name, who was not only hanged, but previously tortured.
Who did what to my friend Julius? And what’s the source?
Ovidius wrote: I guess that the pen in Streicher's hand was/is a more fierce weapon than a bomber over Coventry or a gun in a hand of an Einsatzgruppe man.
In a sense, yes. His obscene hate propaganda calling for the extermination of the Jews is likely to have enhanced the willingness of the killers on site.

The judgment against Streicher can be read under this link:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Streicher.htm

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 20 Jun 2002 20:15

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Ovidius
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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Ovidius » 21 Jun 2002 00:52

Roberto wrote:
TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT 829-PS
Source: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Vol. III. USGPO, Washington, 1946, p.p.597-599
Keitel Order Concerning Ruthless Suppression of any
Resistance in Occupied USSR
I see I've supposed right :mrgreen:
Roberto wrote:
Ovidius wrote: I guess that the pen in Streicher's hand was/is a more fierce weapon than a bomber over Coventry or a gun in a hand of an Einsatzgruppe man.
In a sense, yes. His obscene hate propaganda calling for the extermination of the Jews is likely to have enhanced the willingness of the killers on site.
It's pretty funny that whenever you wish to outline an example of "Nazi" propaganda, you always point out to Streicher and his Der Sturmer, which was a sort of second-rate newspaper(maximum circulation of 600,000 in 1935, after that it went down steadily) and not to the official newspaper of the Reich, Volkischer Beobachter("People's Observer").

Actually Volkischer Beobachter is lesser known. (Our former member Master Hypocrite Tovarich, when he had tried to scorn the Waffen SS, claimed that each of them got an example of Der Sturmer; which obviously was pretty much impossible, since that during war the circulation of Der Sturmer was less than in peacetime, and the Waffen SS counted 900,000 men. :P )
Streicher paid particular attention to the instruction and perversion of the children and youth of Germany. He was not content with inciting the German population. He started to poison the minds of the children at school at the earliest possible date
Interesting :mrgreen:
CONCLUSION. It may be that Streicher is less directly involved in the physical commission of the crimes against Jews than some of his coconspirators. The submission of the Prosecution is that his crime is no less worse for that reason.
Even more interesting :mrgreen:
In its extent Streicher's crime is probably greater and more far-reaching than that of any of the other defendants. The misery which they caused ceased with their capture. The effects of this man's crime, of the poison that he has put into the minds of millions of young boys and girls goes on, for he concentrated upon the youth and childhood of Germany. He leaves behind him a legacy of almost a whole people poisoned with hate, sadism, and murder, and perverted by him. That people remain a problem and perhaps a menace to the rest of civilization for generations to come.
Yeah right :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Roberto » 21 Jun 2002 18:45

Ovidius wrote:It's pretty funny that whenever you wish to outline an example of "Nazi" propaganda, you always point out to Streicher and his Der Sturmer, which was a sort of second-rate newspaper(maximum circulation of 600,000 in 1935, after that it went down steadily) and not to the official newspaper of the Reich, Volkischer Beobachter("People's Observer").
You’re right, Ovi. It should not always be Der Stürmer. While I’m looking for cartoons from the VB, here’s one from Das Reich you’re sure to like:

Image

Cheers,

Roberto

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Re: GREEN EGGS and SPAM...

Post by Ovidius » 21 Jun 2002 21:31

Roberto wrote:You’re right, Ovi. It should not always be Der Stürmer.
The reason for which I've said that about VB and Der Sturmer is the fact that I've never heard an editor from VB, Das Reich or other newspaper from within Hitler's Reich to have been hanged(although IMO hanging is what a lot of newspaper editors nowadays deserve :mrgreen: )

To end this Off-Topic stream: Were any other editors of publications(from within the Reich) hanged? And if the answer is "yes":

- why their life and death were not publicized?
- why no other newspaper from within the Reich(together with its personnel) became a cultural symbol of evil, like Der Sturmer?
- last but not least: those hanged(if ever) were also tortured? :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Gott
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Post by Gott » 11 Jul 2002 11:52

I could have been a better Reichsmarschall than Göring. :mrgreen:

But really, all he does is spent his time on artworks...

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Geli
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Re: Hermann Göring

Post by Geli » 13 Jul 2002 01:45

Image

Now, THAT'S a hotty! :wink:

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Gott
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Re: Hermann Göring

Post by Gott » 13 Jul 2002 07:03

Geli wrote:Image

Now, THAT'S a hotty! :wink:

he is fat.

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Geli
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Post by Geli » 14 Jul 2002 05:25

Sure, he gained weight later on, but how can you say he's fat in this particular picture? :?

...My Lord? :lol:

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