Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

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henryk
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Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#1

Post by henryk » 08 Mar 2017, 21:03

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39 ... ote]Danish boy finds remains of German Messerschmitt in a field
By Rebecca Seales BBC News 8 March 2017 copyright Reuters

Image caption Daniel Kristensen with debris from the wreck of the World War Two aircraft -Reuters

When Klaus Kristiansen tried to bring his son's history homework to life, he probably wasn't expecting the boy to unearth a buried World War Two warplane. Or for excited TV crews, forensic police and explosives experts to descend on his family's farm in Birkelse, Denmark.
But that's exactly what happened when 14-year-old Daniel Rom Kristiansen found the remains of a German Messerschmitt plane, and its pilot, in an unremarkable field.

According to Mr Kristiansen, his grandfather once told him that a plane had crashed there in November 1944. He told Danish news station DR P4 Nordjylland: "When my son Daniel was recently given homework about World War Two, I jokingly told him to go out and find the plane that is supposed to have crashed out in the field." Father and son joined forces with a metal detector, but never expected to find anything.

Mr Kristiansen, an agricultural worker, believed the wreckage had been removed years before. But then, a telltale beeping on a patch of boggy ground. The pair began digging, but realised they needed to go deeper. They borrowed an excavator from a neighbour, and around four to six metres down, the plane's carcass began to reveal itself. Their haul included an engine from the ME 109 Messerschmitt plane, Luftwaffe munitions, and the bones of a crew member who died in the crash.

Image Caption The field where the wreckage came to light -Scanpix Denmark/Henning Bagger via Reuters

"In the first moment it was not a plane," Mr Kristiansen told the BBC. "It was maybe 2,000 - 5,000 pieces of a plane. And we found a motor... then suddenly we found parts of bones, and parts from [the pilot's] clothes. "And then we found some personal things - books, a wallet with money... Either it was a little Bible or it was Mein Kampf - a book in his pocket. We didn't touch it, we just put it in some bags. A museum is now taking care of it. I think there's a lot of information in those papers."

Realising they had found something extraordinary, the farmer contacted World War Two historians and the Danish authorities. Mr Kristiansen said the field was being used "for grass, or cattle". His family has worked on the land where the plane was concealed for decades, oblivious to its secrets. He himself has lived there for 40 years. "We had never seen anything on the surface," he says simply. "Not a single bit of metal.

"He was telling a lot of stories, my grandfather. Some of them were not true, and some of them were true - but this one was true. Maybe I should have listened to him a bit more when he was alive!"

North Jutland Police have now closed the crash site for investigation. As ammunition was found with the plane, bomb disposal experts are on hand to remove it safely. Forensic police are working to recover the dead airman's remains, and hope to identify him in due course.
"Probably there is a pilot who will be buried now in Germany," Mr Kristiansen says. "I would hope so."

As for Daniel... he has handed in his history homework, but hopes to update it when the details of the stricken plane - and the man who fell with it - come to light at last.

Image Caption Experts are now poring over the debris to discover all they can about the plane and its crew -EPA/Henning Bagger[/quote]

Halfdan S.
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#2

Post by Halfdan S. » 09 Mar 2017, 00:01

First guess is that the pilot could be Obergefreiter Bruno Krüger: http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/samfund/ ... ot/6564271


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kstdk
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#3

Post by kstdk » 09 Mar 2017, 00:23


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Poot
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#4

Post by Poot » 09 Mar 2017, 04:03

'Bomb disposal experts' for ammunition? I had to chuckle at that...
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#5

Post by PF » 09 Mar 2017, 04:48

saw a CCN clip of discovery-was that the German Labor front badge? Could this be worn on uniform?

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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#6

Post by Urmel » 09 Mar 2017, 17:28

Poot wrote:'Bomb disposal experts' for ammunition? I had to chuckle at that...
Well who else would you send? The dustbin collection crew from the local council?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#7

Post by Poot » 09 Mar 2017, 19:13

Urmel wrote:
Poot wrote:'Bomb disposal experts' for ammunition? I had to chuckle at that...
Well who else would you send? The dustbin collection crew from the local council?
Seriously?
That's like calling in a lion expert from the local zoo when an old lady's house cat gets stuck in a tree. Ammunition can be collected safely and with next to no risk by Police Officers or Firefighters. I've done it many times, and there is no challenge. Explosive ordnance? Yes, an EOD team would be appropriate in that circumstance. Care to guess how those small arms primers would fare in a bog after all that time?
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#8

Post by kstdk » 09 Mar 2017, 20:38

Hello

According to Danish Law it is the EOD guys from the army that has to handle alle explosives, so they are called in all cases - from large shells / bombs to illegal fireworks.

So - yes - seriously :-)

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Kurt
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#9

Post by Knouterer » 09 Mar 2017, 21:47

Later versions of the Me 109 often carried 30 mm Mk 108 guns, the shells of which were filled with up to 85 grams of PETN. Serious explosive ordnance, more than enough to kill somebody.
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#10

Post by BarKokhba » 10 Mar 2017, 05:25

Have they identified the pilot yet?

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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#11

Post by Sejanus » 10 Mar 2017, 05:41

kstdk wrote:Hello

According to Danish Law it is the EOD guys from the army that has to handle alle explosives, so they are called in all cases - from large shells / bombs to illegal fireworks.

So - yes - seriously :-)

Regards
Kurt
kstdk
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Makes sense in this case, as there could be heavier ordnance at the site besides the ammunition. Better safe than sorry.

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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#12

Post by Urmel » 10 Mar 2017, 08:30

Poot wrote:
Urmel wrote:
Poot wrote:'Bomb disposal experts' for ammunition? I had to chuckle at that...
Well who else would you send? The dustbin collection crew from the local council?
Seriously?
That's like calling in a lion expert from the local zoo when an old lady's house cat gets stuck in a tree. Ammunition can be collected safely and with next to no risk by Police Officers or Firefighters. I've done it many times, and there is no challenge. Explosive ordnance? Yes, an EOD team would be appropriate in that circumstance. Care to guess how those small arms primers would fare in a bog after all that time?
You've many times collected ammo that has lain in a bog for 70 years? You are aware that a Me 109 was equipped with a 20mm cannon that fired shells, right? How many of those have you collected and disposed off in your career? And somehow you are also presuming that the police officers who called in the EOD had perfect knowledge of what they would find at the site.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Poot
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#13

Post by Poot » 10 Mar 2017, 18:22

kstdk wrote:Hello

According to Danish Law it is the EOD guys from the army that has to handle alle explosives, so they are called in all cases - from large shells / bombs to illegal fireworks.

So - yes - seriously :-)

Regards
Kurt
kstdk
(Denmark)
That makes sense, then. If they're legally obligated to be on scene and do the removal, then that's that.
Pat
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Poot
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#14

Post by Poot » 10 Mar 2017, 18:40

Urmel wrote:
Poot wrote:
Urmel wrote:
Poot wrote:'Bomb disposal experts' for ammunition? I had to chuckle at that...
Well who else would you send? The dustbin collection crew from the local council?
Seriously?
That's like calling in a lion expert from the local zoo when an old lady's house cat gets stuck in a tree. Ammunition can be collected safely and with next to no risk by Police Officers or Firefighters. I've done it many times, and there is no challenge. Explosive ordnance? Yes, an EOD team would be appropriate in that circumstance. Care to guess how those small arms primers would fare in a bog after all that time?
You've many times collected ammo that has lain in a bog for 70 years? You are aware that a Me 109 was equipped with a 20mm cannon that fired shells, right? How many of those have you collected and disposed off in your career? And somehow you are also presuming that the police officers who called in the EOD had perfect knowledge of what they would find at the site.
Read the article again, Urmel. Here's the sentence that is relevant:
"As ammunition was found with the plane, bomb disposal experts are on hand to remove it safely."

The plane was picked apart and removed piece by rotting piece. Explosive ordnance is not mentioned, but ammunition is. And yes, I have located and removed ammunition that was 30, 60, 70 years old and older. Not out of a bog, which would provide a wet enough environment to alter the chemistry of the powder in the cases, but out of environments that were far less than sterile. Have you? And what in bog/field conditions will act as a firing pin to ignite the primer at the back of each case...? By 1944 (the year the aircraft went down) cartridge cases were made of steel, which is known to rot significantly quicker than the brass cases used in the pre-war and early wartime period. Even if the primers were able to remain sealed and live (very highly unlikely), the powder would be compromised. There is also seepage from the necks of the cases where the bullet is crimped.

I didn't presume any EOD knowledge/experience on the part of any law enforcement, because it's not necessary to remove small arms ammunition, but as our fellow member noted above, it's legally required in Denmark, so there you have it.
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

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Urmel
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Re: Messerschmitt Found in Denmark

#15

Post by Urmel » 10 Mar 2017, 23:26

You can read the sentence any way you like. It doesn't say what kind of ammunition, and it states that the EOD experts were on hand, so they may not have been called in.

You're going in on a lot of assumptions (for example that when digging it up people knew the plane went down in 1944, or even what type of plane it was). Good to see that they didn't kill or maim you in your job, which I presume required a lot of 2020 hindsight, and you seem to be a real expert in that field. :thumbsup:
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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