JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
Skarpskytten
Member
Posts: 138
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 19:15
Location: Växjö

JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#1

Post by Skarpskytten » 10 May 2017, 14:11

So, I'm writing an article on the Dallacy Strike Wing attack on Z33 in Fördefjorden Februray 5th 1945, the so called Black Friday.

When it comes to the allied air units that participated in the battle, there are no mysteries. 32 Bristol Beaufighter TF Mk X and 12 Mustang III (and 2 Warwick ASR) took of from Dallachy/Peterhead; two Mustang's returned home and two Beaufighter were sent ahead as outriders and returned home. Hence, 30 Beaufighters and 10 Mustangs took part in the sea-air battle over Fördefjorden.

But when it comes to the numer of german aircraft, there are two figures circulating.

All references I have are in agreement that 9 FW 190 from 9. Staffel, JG 5 took part, but when it comes to 12. Staffel there are different opinions. Now, various sources on the internet would have us believe that there were 3 FW 190 from 12. Staffel, but in the (norwegian) book "Den svarte fredagen" by Kjell Ove Nordeide and Halvor Sperbund the authors claim that a total of 16, that is 7 from 12. Staffel took part. They do not seems to have consulted original german sources (as the KTB of JG 5), but say that "several" eyewitnesses saw 16 FW 190. This is somewhat suspect, but they also has a list of all participating polit. They name 9 from the 9. Staffel and 5 from the 12. Staffel, and add that the names of "a couple" of 12. Staffel pilots have not been found. No references are given.

Can anyone throw any ligth on this mystery? I'm particularly interested in what the JG 5 (III. Gruppe) KTB has to say. Did they scramble 12 or 16 FW 190s?

Larry D.
Member
Posts: 4103
Joined: 05 Aug 2004, 00:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#2

Post by Larry D. » 10 May 2017, 14:41

Have you checked the two JG 5 published unit histories - an old one from the 1970's/1980's by Werner Girbig and a relatively new multi-volume work by Eric Mombeek? The latter used every surviving JG 5 document, interviews with pilots, Flugbücher, etc. If the correct figure for 12. Staffel is to be found anywhere, it would be in the Mombeek book.

L.


Skarpskytten
Member
Posts: 138
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 19:15
Location: Växjö

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#3

Post by Skarpskytten » 10 May 2017, 14:47

Larry D. wrote:Have you checked the two JG 5 published unit histories - an old one from the 1970's/1980's by Werner Girbig and a relatively new multi-volume work by Eric Mombeek? The latter used every surviving JG 5 document, interviews with pilots, Flugbücher, etc. If the correct figure for 12. Staffel is to be found anywhere, it would be in the Mombeek book. L.
My plan was to try to lend those through my library if no one could help me here :). I have no previous aquantance with Mombeek, but have read the Motorbuch book on KG 100, it was pretty awesome. Thanks!

igorr
Member
Posts: 852
Joined: 29 Aug 2009, 03:21

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#4

Post by igorr » 11 May 2017, 04:53

Mombbek wrote: 9 and 12 staffeln started 15.45 from Herdla. Oblt. Gayko can't fly and gave commanding functions to Fw. Artner, and 12 staffel was lead by his commander Lt. Linz. M. not mentioned how much Fw.190, but in memoirs of 12's staffel member, Lt. Koch we can read about 15 planes from German side. 8 men (3 from 12, 5 from 9 staffel) make claims, two more not participated in claims, were shot down. So there is 10 names of participants of this fight from german side.

Skarpskytten
Member
Posts: 138
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 19:15
Location: Växjö

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#5

Post by Skarpskytten » 11 May 2017, 06:53

igorr wrote:Mombbek wrote: 9 and 12 staffeln started 15.45 from Herdla. Oblt. Gayko can't fly and gave commanding functions to Fw. Artner, and 12 staffel was lead by his commander Lt. Linz. M. not mentioned how much Fw.190, but in memoirs of 12's staffel member, Lt. Koch we can read about 15 planes from German side. 8 men (3 from 12, 5 from 9 staffel) make claims, two more not participated in claims, were shot down. So there is 10 names of participants of this fight from german side.
Thanks!

So 15 according to one of the pilots?

The plot thickens.

I might have to borrow Girbig if no one has the kindness to tell what he has to say here.

igorr
Member
Posts: 852
Joined: 29 Aug 2009, 03:21

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#6

Post by igorr » 11 May 2017, 08:08

I have Girbig too. He wrote very little about 9.2.45. Just as Rudi Linz falls on small island and as Rudi Artner has clash with 30 Beaufighters and 10 Mustangs at 16.08, when 9 Fw.190 from 9./JG 5 was in the sky. Girbig say nothing about quantity of Fw's from 12./JG 5.

Skarpskytten
Member
Posts: 138
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 19:15
Location: Växjö

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#7

Post by Skarpskytten » 11 May 2017, 09:13

igorr wrote:I have Girbig too. He wrote very little about 9.2.45. Just as Rudi Linz falls on small island and as Rudi Artner has clash with 30 Beaufighters and 10 Mustangs at 16.08, when 9 Fw.190 from 9./JG 5 was in the sky. Girbig say nothing about quantity of Fw's from 12./JG 5.
Thank you, igorr, you have saved me a lot of trouble!

The answer, it seems, is buried in the KTB of J.G. 5, if there.

igorr
Member
Posts: 852
Joined: 29 Aug 2009, 03:21

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#8

Post by igorr » 11 May 2017, 09:46

It seems, this KTB not survived war, among many others.
There was very good reports of VO to AOK 20 about air activity, with number of aircrafts participating, time etc. but i see such docs only for 1942-43. From 1944 this reports became short and rare. I can't said for sure that Herdla was in AOK 20 area. If not, same reports can be send to another Heer instance with survived after 1945 dokuments.

Skarpskytten
Member
Posts: 138
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 19:15
Location: Växjö

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#9

Post by Skarpskytten » 12 May 2017, 09:06

igorr wrote:It seems, this KTB not survived war, among many others.
There was very good reports of VO to AOK 20 about air activity, with number of aircrafts participating, time etc. but i see such docs only for 1942-43. From 1944 this reports became short and rare. I can't said for sure that Herdla was in AOK 20 area. If not, same reports can be send to another Heer instance with survived after 1945 dokuments.
I think I will have to leave this mystery unsolved for the time being, it the article I will probably use the figure 12. Thanks again, igorr!

igorr
Member
Posts: 852
Joined: 29 Aug 2009, 03:21

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#10

Post by igorr » 12 May 2017, 11:47

Why not 15? At least 4 12"s pilots participated in fight (3 with claims - Birk, Koch, Linz) and 1 shot down (Schafer). So approach 9+3 didn't fit.

Skarpskytten
Member
Posts: 138
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 19:15
Location: Växjö

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#11

Post by Skarpskytten » 12 May 2017, 19:47

No, I think your right.

Furthermore, I've realized that though Kjell Ove Nordeide and Halvor Sperbund didn't consult any offical Lufwaffe material in their book (but lots of Kriegsmarine), they do mention a J Dolge as a participating pilot - and in thier biography they have a "Flugbuch" "lent by Marion Dolge"; which I asume is a relative. And they don't have Birk; I've missed him.

This is their list for 12. Staffel:
R Linz, Blaue 4, 732183
K.H Koch, Blaue 9,732070
H. Shaefer, Blaue 1, 350177
J. Dolge, no further info
T. Niebauer, no further info

So they have two names missing to make 16, and one of them would be Birk? Can you till me something more about him?

User avatar
stril
Member
Posts: 2704
Joined: 10 Jul 2003, 11:37
Location: Norway

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#12

Post by stril » 12 May 2017, 22:09

Hello
If interested i can ask one of the autors about this matter.Ill meet him on sunday.
regards
Stril

Andrew Arthy
Member
Posts: 214
Joined: 08 Oct 2010, 05:04
Location: Tasmania
Contact:

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#13

Post by Andrew Arthy » 13 May 2017, 04:26

Hi,

From NA HW 13/21, a British summary file of German air operations, based on ULTRA and Y-Service intercepts:

"Nine FW 190s took off at 15:20 from Bergen Herdla for flight northwards as far as 06 East 533. At 15:45 they attacked Coastal Command Beaufighters operating south of Stadlandet and probably shot down three, AA accounting for another six. Escorting Mustangs claim 3 FW 190s."

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Skarpskytten
Member
Posts: 138
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 19:15
Location: Växjö

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#14

Post by Skarpskytten » 13 May 2017, 06:09

stril wrote:Hello
If interested i can ask one of the autors about this matter.Ill meet him on sunday.
regards
Stril
Yea, please do! It would be "greit"!

And if it's not to forward, as about what sources they had for the listing of german pilots and aircraft.

My article (which will be short) will appear in the swedish magazine "Militär historia" during the autumn if he's interested.

igorr
Member
Posts: 852
Joined: 29 Aug 2009, 03:21

Re: JG 5 Eismeer, Black Friday 9/2 -45: number of Fw190?

#15

Post by igorr » 13 May 2017, 10:29

Ofw. Heinz Birk was no way new man - he served in 7. and 10./JG 5 from summer 1944 when that staffeln fights against soviet VVS in Finnmark. Then he went to 12. staffel. He fly Blaue 5, WrNr ?32217. Mombeek has his photos (with his plane) on page 152, volume 4.
Birk was shot down 25.3.1945, but can escape with para. He was wounded & saved by local fishermans. Looks like he survived war.

Post Reply

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”