Dili wrote:@ antwony
-You can't compare directly power levels of an aircraft with inline engine which is much more aerodynamic with one with radial, the later always need much more power to achieve same performance. That said Bf 109 was at end of the rope of possible improvements by mid war due to being a such small aircraft.
I'll admit I was being a bit checky mantioning horsepower. I'm familiar with Criticalmass's posting history and the German's failed attempts to up the horsepower their piston engines could produce, so I was baiting him a bit. But, conversely, I wasn't being delusional/ willfully lying, so I'm not ashamed nor am I going to apologise.
The Spitfire was the same size, although (depending on varient) quite a bit lighter than the 109. British engineers managed to improve it right through till its manufacture was stopped in 1948. Grumman's final piston engined fighter, the F8F Bearcat was smaller, lighter and faster than the Hellcat. Even the Russians, who like the German's couldn't produce high horse powered piston engines, managed to continuously improve their light fighter, the Yak.
For a nation with such an engineering heritage, and future, WW2 era German engineering was pretty much atrocious.
Dili wrote:- Yes, Salerno was a disaster. I have no defined opinion on Seafire combat capabilities against other sea based aircraft, but i know it was need to build a version for very low level combat, i think this was done due to torpedo bomber threat.
Would argee that WW2 histography would tend to portray the situation vis-a-vis aircover at Salerno as disasterous and in particularly the Seafire being a disaster. But, I'd disagree. The Seafire's on the CVE's were meant to transfer to Salerno airfield on D +1. I think it was about a week they operated off the too slow, too small decks. They still flew the bulk of the missions over the landing zone. There were only 36 fighters in Sicily, the rest of the land based planes were operating out of Tunisia, which was quite a ways off.
In retrospect, the two fleet carriers of Force H, which were mainly operating Wildcats, should have transferred those squadrons to the CVEs and operated purely Seafires, which had "less bad" statistics in regards to landing on the faster ships. But, Fleet Air Arm liked it Wildcats, a plane comparable to and successful against the Me109. RN's fleet carrier's were the service's "front line" units and they may not have been keen to operate a new plane type i.e. the Seafire.
The clipped wing thing was pretty common for all types of Spitfires, mid/ late war. It wasn't purely for the Seafire, it was a low altitude optimisation. I'm sure the Americans, if they'd realised it was going to be neccessary, could have made F6F's/ F4U's which were excellent at high altitude. But, they hadn't and off Okinawa, the Seafire was the best performer at altitude against kamikazes
critical mass wrote:Since You are including GM-1, then the Bf-109G5AS/U2 was both, faster and earlier.
OK, so in late 1943, the German's made a reconnaissance sub-varient (in its dozens???) of a high altitude version of the 109 which was comparable to first world aircraft of over two years earlier. I stand corrected.
critical mass wrote:Pure motor Hp are among the most irrelevant performance proxies one might want to refer. It´s a pointless attempt. Relevant instead are power/weight and lift drag ratio´s. The F6F-3 may have had 2000bhp with ADI but it also features about twice the mass of the Bf 109T and was a much larger A/C. It´s among the lowest performing 2000hp class fighter A/C in ww2.
Sure, the Hellcat was a big lump of Detroit iron, which competent engineers who knew what they were doing considered important.
critical mass wrote:This came with good characteristics, necessary for carrier OP´s such as low stall speed, low approach speed, good controllability at front end approaces of the power curve, etc. However, the Bf 109T had an even lower stall speed than the F6F-3. On the other end, the F6F-3 was faster on the deck and at altitude than the -109T on climb- and compat power- but not significantly so, and that advantage is for F6F-3 with ADI and Bf-109T without ADI. 15-20mph, while notable, doesn´t give much of a tactical edge.
Further, the Bf-109T had similar climb across the board (initial climb 1000m/s vs 990m/s for F6F-3 with ADI). The Tony did feature a higher cruise speed, which lends an energy advantage when entering a dogfight. There is no direct comparison on maneuverability of Tony vs Hellcat The Hellcat but power curve and lift drag coefficients do not lend advantage to the F6F-3, except for high speed roll. The latter, however, does dive better, and it has substantially larger tactical range. Both planes were fitted to carry droppable ordnance and -tanks. In many of these areas advantages can be found for the Hellcat but there are also distinct areas and subareas where the Bf 109 T is better. By all intents, the Bf 109T wouldn´t have stayed on Db-601N during 1943/4 and at the very least would have been upgraded to Db-601E, which is sufficient to shift the balance broadly to the Tony across the board.
So the 109T-2 which has the engine of an 109F-1 (DB601N) but offered a performance, after navalisation, akin to an E-4 is comparable to a Hellcat, while a plane which never existed, your varient with a DB- 601E (the f-3's) engine is going to be superior... OK, I understand what you're saying but don't agree. The difference between the Db601N/ E wouldn't be a couple fo hundred horsepower would it?
critical mass wrote:Apparently You lost track of the aspect touching the discussion. Let me help You catching up. I claimed that the Fw 190 was unsuitable for GRAF ZEPPELIN carrier OP´s because of it´s high stall speed, high landing speed, long take off run and rough stall speed behavior. These are well documented in comparison with Bf 109, which had been choosen for GRAF ZEPPELIN and modified to even improve upon these aspects of it´s low speed performance envelope in particular. Carrier A/C during ww2 was not about top speed first and foremost because the A/C had to be operable from capacity limited platforms, requiring good low speed enevelope charakteristics.
Therefore the sideline of P51 had relevance, as it was instrumentalized to demonstrate that a high performance land fighter with poor low speed behavior could be operated from a carrier. Yes, it could be flown safely. You could probably even shorten AND narrow the flight deck and still operate a P51 from a carrier if You carefully hit the arrestor cable with every approach. But it would be ridicolous to shorten the flight deck and it would be ridicoulous to use a plane with such small low speed margin in view of the required pilot skills. That´s similarely true about the Fw 190 as it was for the P51 and the test pilot expressed it. You may quibble all day long about the details, feel free to express Your opinion but at the end of the day LineDoggie presented a case which did not took into consideration any thought on the difficulties in approaching and landing on a carrier as expressed by Lt. Elder in the reports. I am pretty sure he did it in best faith, as he might choose to show that thought was given to navalize the P51. But these details are important in critical reviews simply because a carrier is physically more limited and a more dangerous place to operate than a field in the open.
You make good points, with a acceptable level of snideness since my reply to you wasn't polite.
critical mass wrote:That beeing said, I consider Your memo both, offensive in nature and displaced in tone. Because my time is too valuable to be invested in such a type of discussion, I suppose You will be happy to know that I will resign from posting in this thread anymore.
Yes, you are correct. I consider your posts mendicious and don't like you. Is perhaps for the best to not reply to each other