Flakscheinw.Abt. 129 and Fla.Schw.A. III/4

[Ebusitanus]

Hello,
Set up this thread as to hopefully get some feedback as to research the service time of my grandfather.

Acording to WASt (which had almost no information on his service due to archive destruction at the end of the war) His Dog tag would have read 11./Fla.Schw.A.III/4. which fit well into him being part of the 3rd Battalion of the Flak-Regiment 4 which stood at Ostende for most of the war while the other two battalions were sent to Russia

This unit changed names in August 43 to Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 469 which then changed to different parent Flak regiments throughout the comming months while still stationed in Ostende. After the Normandy landings at some point they got mobilited in the direction of the front but just in time to take part with the retreat/rout towards the Reich. My grandfather told me how they blew up the big searchlight and moved towards the Netherlands.

One thing that has irritated me regarding what he has left me is his Erkennungsmarke. Its not the same WASt said he had nor does it match one that can be seen amongst his pictures. It reads 2./Flakscheinw.Abt. 129. Why would WASt say it was 11./Fla.Schw.A. III/4? Would that first have been his traning command before being sent to the Flak Regiment 4?

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/abt/sw129.html

He told me he had started the war in Hamm near Dortmund which is precisely where the III./4 was raised. Where does the Flakscheinw.Abt. 129 come in?

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/flargt4.html

Any idea also what that "W" could mean on this tag?

[Simon H]

The (Reserve) Flak Scheinwerfer Abt 129 formed on 26 August 1939 in Berlin-Lankwitz from parts of the III. / Flak Regiment 12 with three batteries installed and then used until the end of the war in Darmstadt. It lost the "Reserve" part of the name later, however I believe that as it was originally formed in Berlin it's possible that the W on the ekm above refers to the location of the barracks in the Wedding district of Berlin.

What is confusing to me is that given his birth location and the raising of Flak Rgt 4 at Darmstadt this would seem the first unit he would be with. Plus it clearly isn't the one he is wearing in the photo. Perhaps he acquired it later from another source and it was never actually his, there is no mention of this unit with WaSt so maybe it is a red herring (a false trail)?

[Larry D.]

Hello Ebusitanus -

The Flak-Schweinwerfer-Regiment'er were first formed in August 1941 when the Luftwaffe began setting up its searchlight belts in NW Europe at part of the night air defense system then being developed. They were nothing more than a headquarters and staff that subordinated other Scheinwerfer units. Part of the problem here is confusing the III.(Scheinwerfer) Abteilungen of the regular Flak regiments that came into existence in 1935 with the Flakscheinwerfer-Regiment'er.

The best and usually the only way to effectively trace a Wehrmacht veteran's units and assignments is by using his/her Feldpostnummern - see the example below for FpN L 01446. So I would recommend that you try and put a list together of his FpNs so you can better trace his wartime units. You can get these by gathering all of his wartime papers and letters together and searching through them.

In your grandfather's case, it seems like he was often transferred as an individual from one unit to another, so the changing designations of units may not provide all of the answers.

01446
(Mobilmachung (26.8.1939)-1.1.1940) 2. Batterie Reserve-Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129 formed,
(12.7.1941-26.1.1942) designation changed to 2. Batterie Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129,
On 3.8.1943 designation changed to 2. Batterie Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129 (o).

Flakschweinwerfer-Abt. 469(v)
Formed in 1943.
1943-44: at Zeebrugge/Belgium under Flak-Rgt. 129.
27 Aug 43: in Ostend area. (CX/MSS/3127/T19)
Mar 44: under Flakscheinwerfer-Rgt. 195 (Flakgruppe Somme).
15 Jul 44: now at Aun-le-Chateau under Flakscheinwerfer-Rgt. 195/20. Flakbrigade. (T-971 roll 18 frame 052)
18 Oct 44: in s'Hertogenbosch area/Holland under Flak-Rgt. 100. (T-321 roll 65)
23 Nov 44: Stab at Herwijnen/47 km E of Rotterdam on the Waal River under Flak-Rgt. 111. Had three batteries (1.-3.) of 2.0 cm Flak, total of 43 weapons. (T-314:1625/304)
1945: in operation to the end of the war.
FpN: Stab (L 03591), 1. Battr. (L 25788), 2. Battr. (L 25624), 3. Battr. (L 04809), 4. Battr. (?), 5. Battr. (?).

I am not really sure what you are looking for. Very specific questions would help a lot.

L.

[Volyn]

Ebusitanus -
Do you have more photos of him wearing his uniform? Do you know what awards, badges or patches he earned?

[Ebusitanus]

The (Reserve) Flak Scheinwerfer Abt 129 formed on 26 August 1939 in Berlin-Lankwitz from parts of the III. / Flak Regiment 12 with three batteries installed and then used until the end of the war in Darmstadt. It lost the "Reserve" part of the name later, however I believe that as it was originally formed in Berlin it's possible that the W on the ekm above refers to the location of the barracks in the Wedding district of Berlin.

What is confusing to me is that given his birth location and the raising of Flak Rgt 4 at Darmstadt this would seem the first unit he would be with. Plus it clearly isn't the one he is wearing in the photo. Perhaps he acquired it later from another source and it was never actually his, there is no mention of this unit with WaSt so maybe it is a red herring (a false trail)?

Hello and many thanks for your thoughts.
The Wedding theory might be sound. I will add it to my file for further consideration.
Darmstadt is not that far from his birth location at Bergen, near Frankfurt. In any event his WASt file states that Bergen was the "Befehlstelle" of the 11.Kompanie Fliegerabwehr-Regiment 4. This is also a bit odd since the rest of the 4th Regiment seems to have been stationed around Dortmund. My grandfather told me that he was stationed with his company at Hamm which is very close to Dortmund. What would Befehlstelle means in this regard and being so far away from Dortmund. Does that make sense?

He does indeed wear in the picture a tag that is not the same 129 Abteilung as shown and given to me by my grandfather. The shown tag could well have been the original one mentioned with WASt 11./Fla.Schw.A.III/4 or even the Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 469 he could have had after in August 1943 the unit changed names.
WASt has basically no information on my grandfather's service record aside of his calling up. The Luftwaffe records and those of the Flak in particular got destroyed in the last day of the war.
Everything is of course possible and I do not discount that my grandfather might have BSd me into thinking that 129 tag was actually his but I do not think he lost his and found/bought the 129 one to keep it as he did for so many years after the war given that he had next to nothing for the war years. The tag being also one relating to his trade with Searchlights also tends to make me believe there has to be a conection I am not catching here.

When checking the 129 records online I get that we have information of this unit being stationed at Darmstadt till 1/12/1944

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/abt/sw129.html

I know from his accounts that at the end of 1944 at some point he got sent from his old unit to train Volksturm troopers to the Ruhr. Could the 129 not have moved up after December 1944 up from Darmstadt to the Ruhr? and him being transfered to said area, assigned to the 129?
I do believe the tag did belong to him. Just having to contect the dots.

[Ebusitanus]

The best and usually the only way to effectively trace a Wehrmacht veteran's units and assignments is by using his/her Feldpostnummern - see the example below for FpN L 01446. So I would recommend that you try and put a list together of his FpNs so you can better trace his wartime units. You can get these by gathering all of his wartime papers and letters together and searching through them.

Hi Larry, many thanks for your information as it surely helps in filling my research

Sadly I have not been able to find any wartime letter by him so far. Having some nice FpNs along the years would have truly helped much. I "interviewed" my Opa before his passing but I was to young then as to have been able to ask him the many questions and doubts that have arrisen since then to now.

In your grandfather's case, it seems like he was often transferred as an individual from one unit to another, so the changing designations of units may not provide all of the answers.

The big doubt, as mentioned on my previous post, is how does the Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129 factor into all this story. Personally I do believe that it was his last Erkennungsmarke at the end of a long service history. How he got to it is the big question. I have written down my thoughts on this on the previous post. I have the suspicion that it must have happened on the last months of the war. Before that, his attachment to the third battery of the 4th Flakregiment and its offspring being the Flakschweinwerfer-Abt. 469 seems way to solid.

If we could find out wether the Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129 was moved in 1945 to the Ruhr from Darmstadt we would have a winner.

The idea that he would have started his service with the 129 in 1939 makes no much sense due to the information we can find from WASt. Him being from the town of Bergen near Frankfurt, and being Bergen (somehow strangely) the Befehstelle for the 11th Company of the III/4 (eventhough the unit itself was based around Dortmund in 1939) says much. Can a Befehlstelle be so far away from the actual field company barracks??? Frankfurt to Dortmund?

Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 12901446
(Mobilmachung (26.8.1939)-1.1.1940) 2. Batterie Reserve-Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129 formed,
(12.7.1941-26.1.1942) designation changed to 2. Batterie Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129,
On 3.8.1943 designation changed to 2. Batterie Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129 (o).

What would the (o) mean anyhow? Would this (o) have been sufficiently important as to have been added to a Erkennugsmarke? Or for that matter the 1939-41 term "Reserve"? This could help in placing my grandfather's 129 tag in a given time frame (after 1941 but before 43)

Flakschweinwerfer-Abt. 469(v)
Formed in 1943.
1943-44: at Zeebrugge/Belgium under Flak-Rgt. 129.
27 Aug 43: in Ostend area. (CX/MSS/3127/T19)
Mar 44: under Flakscheinwerfer-Rgt. 195 (Flakgruppe Somme).
15 Jul 44: now at Aun-le-Chateau under Flakscheinwerfer-Rgt. 195/20. Flakbrigade. (T-971 roll 18 frame 052)
18 Oct 44: in s'Hertogenbosch area/Holland under Flak-Rgt. 100. (T-321 roll 65)
23 Nov 44: Stab at Herwijnen/47 km E of Rotterdam on the Waal River under Flak-Rgt. 111. Had three batteries (1.-3.) of 2.0 cm Flak, total of 43 weapons. (T-314:1625/304)
1945: in operation to the end of the war.
FpN: Stab (L 03591), 1. Battr. (L 25788), 2. Battr. (L 25624), 3. Battr. (L 04809), 4. Battr. (?), 5. Battr. (?).

This bit of information is completely new to me and I am truly thankful Larry. Where did you get it from? Would you have said information of those rolls you quote? Could said info be expanded? Anything to add content to my grandfather's service history would be just great.

Regards

[Ebusitanus]

Ebusitanus -
Do you have more photos of him wearing his uniform? Do you know what awards, badges or patches he earned?

Sure thing. Here I attach a few of him throughout the years. After his 1942-43 promotion while attending a Anwärter course to Unteroffizier the pictures seem to have died out.

[Ebusitanus]

Acording to this link the "W" on the tag would mean "Wehrmacht" or "Werfer". In what sense could Wehrmacht have any special relation to this? Maybe because while being part of a Searchlight unit he was also a combat assigned man? That could make sense since he was sent as a trainer to the Volksturm and actually fought in the Ruhr.

https://docplayer.org/20750967-Vksvg-e- ... men-a.html

[Larry D.]

Hi Ebusitanus -

Before I address the 3 or 4 questions you posed above in a separate post to follow, here is some more information on sw.129 that may be of interest and help to you and your research:

Flakscheinwerfer-Abt. 129(v)

Formed 26 August 1939 or a few weeks thereafter in Berlin-Lankwitz from parts of III./Flak-Rgt. 12 with 1. - 3. Batterien. Known as Reserve-Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129 until July 1942, then as Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129. Redesignated once again on 2 August 1943 as Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 129 (o). 4./Sw.129 was formed in Oct 41, and 5./Sw.129 was formed in Mar 44 from Flakscheinwerfer-Batterie z.b.V. 8215. In Jun 43 4./Sw.129 became Flakscheinwerfer-Batterie z.b.V. 2500, and was replaced. (Tessin, Kannapin, website ww2.dk)
History
13 Sep 41: deployed in the Frankfurt/Main – Mainz area. (CLs)
11 Apr 43: 1 KIA by bombs at Heusenstamm/9.55 km SSE of FrankfurtMain city center. (LRs)
6 May 43: 1 WIA by bombs at Dietzenbach/10.6 km SE of FrankfurtMain city center. (LRs)
Apr 43: Stab/sw.129 said to be located in Darmstadt/26.6 km S of Frankfurt/M. city center. (website ww2.dk)
Nov 43: subordinate to Flakscheinwerfer-Rgt. 119 (Flakgruppe Frankfurt/M.)/21. Flak-Div. (Tessin)
15 Jan 44: 1./sw.129 in Hanau, 2./sw.129 had its position in Dörnigheim between Hanau and Frankfurt/M., 6./sw.129 in Aschaffenburg. All three had a large complement of Luftwaffenhelfer from Aschaffenburg. (H-DN:I/378)
Mar 44: subordinate to Flakscheinwerfer-Rgt. 119 (Flakgruppe Frankfurt/M.)/21. Flak-Div. (Tessin)
11 May 44: 1./sw.129 in Grosskrotzenburg, 2./sw.129 in Bischofsheim/M., 3./sw.129 in Rückingen, 4./sw.129 in Heusenstamm, 5./sw.129 in Offenbach. (H-DN:II/901)
Dec 44: subordinate to Flakscheinwerfer-Rgt. 119 (Flakgruppe Frankfurt/M.)/21. Flak-Div. (Tessin)
Mar 45: still deployed in the Central Rhine area. (Tessin)
FpNs: Stab (L 28519), 1. Batterie (L 20574), 2. Batterie (L 01446), 3. Batterie (L 09061), 4. Batterie (L 42774, L 53714), 5. Batterie (L 54398).
Kommandeur:
(not found)

[Sources:
CLs: BA-MA Freiburg: Luftwaffen-Personalamt L.P.(A)5(V) (OKL Chef für Ausz. und Disziplin). (CL = Claims Lists)
LRs: BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle. (LR = Loss Reports)
H-DN: Nicolaisen, Hans-Dietrich. Gruppenfeuer und Salventakt: Schüler und Lehrlinge bei der Flak 1943-1945. Büsum, 1993. 2 Bde.
Kannapin, Norbert. Die deutsche Feldpostübersicht 1939-1945. 3 Bde (I – III) (Osnabrück, 1980-82).
Tessin, Georg. Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945. 16+ Bde. Osnabrück: Biblio Verlag, 1965-c.1990. Teil 14: Die Luftstreitkräfte (Osnabrück, 1980).]

L.

[Larry D.]

Hi Ebusitanus -

What a shame................I just completed a long post that answered all of your questions and then, while momentarily shifting to another website, I lost the one for you. But (v) is verlegefaehig and (o) is ortsfest. Sorry about that! Oh, and the "W" on his Erk.M. almost certainly means "Waffen" for weapons-trained. And one more: the NARA T-321 and T-971 microfilm rolls have no further information. I extracted everything I could find from them.

L.

[Volyn]

Sure thing. Here I attach a few of him throughout the years. After his 1942-43 promotion while attending a Anwärter course to Unteroffizier the pictures seem to have died out.

I see in the photo there are 2 badges on his right breast pocket, I will try to identify them.

img027a.jpg (42.4 KiB) Viewed 7460 times

Do you know what his actual role in the Flak unit was? He has the Luftwaffe Signals Trade Patch on his lower left sleeve in this photo.

img033.jpg (99.69 KiB) Viewed 7458 times

It is possible that he could have earned the Outstanding Performance embroidery on his patch later in his career.

Luftwaffe Signals Patch.jpg (32.63 KiB) Viewed 7458 times

[Ebusitanus]

Hello Volyn,
Yes, he did serve in transmissions for his Flak unit and he did win the Flak-Kampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe in February 1943 as shown in the diploma I attached above. I sadly do not have any pictures of him wearing the badge though allthough I do own the badge itself.

[Volyn]

Hello Volyn,
Yes, he did serve in transmissions for his Flak unit and he did win the Flak-Kampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe in February 1943 as shown in the diploma I attached above. I sadly do not have any pictures of him wearing the badge though allthough I do own the badge itself.

If only I could read German

Do you know what those 2 badges are on his right jacket pocket?

Great new photos!

[Ebusitanus]

Hi Ebusitanus -
What a shame................I just completed a long post that answered all of your questions and then, while momentarily shifting to another website, I lost the one for you. But (v) is verlegefaehig and (o) is ortsfest. Sorry about that! Oh, and the "W" on his Erk.M. almost certainly means "Waffen" for weapons-trained. And one more: the NARA T-321 and T-971 microfilm rolls have no further information. I extracted everything I could find from them.

Truly a shame Larry as your post are well researched and set up. Thank you anyhow for the amazing amount of data you have provided me.
We were talking about Darmstadt, which is south of Frankfurt but those locations you have quoted for the 129 starting November 1943 are actually not only directly in Frankfurt but also mostly actually around his home town of Bergen which was part of Hanau at that time. Dörnigheim, home of 2./129 which is the unit of his last tag is not even two miles from his home town. Why he would have been transfered there and gotten this tag is the big unanswered question.

[Simon H]

...Oh, and the "W" on his Erk.M. almost certainly means "Waffen" for weapons-trained....

L.

That's a first for me, very interesting Larry. It's not something I have ever seen before. Can you tell me what source this was from please?

Best,
Simon