Luftwaffe Pilots: Negative Record

coldam · Post by **coldam** » 10 Jun 2003 01:19

Being shot down repeatedly.
I touched on this topic recently in 'the day AH died'.
I once read that Stuka-Rudel was shot down himself over 20 times.

Is there a holder of this surely nerve-wracking record?

...peter

Caldric · Post by **Caldric** » 10 Jun 2003 01:25

I always wonder if the being downed should effect their ace scores. I forget how many times Hartmann was shot down but it was a quiet a few. Should they be given one free downing and after that should their score be divided by each downing?

Hartmann 300 kills or whatever, shot down 9 times, gets one freebie, so divide 300 by 8 = 37.5 kills per life.

Those numbers are abstract I do not know how many times he was shot down.

Cammin1 · Post by **Cammin1** » 10 Jun 2003 01:40

"I once read that Stuka-Rudel was shot down himself over 20 times."

I like this topic

tonyh · Post by **tonyh** » 10 Jun 2003 11:57

Hartmann crashed on his arrival to JG52 in Russia, he was flying a Stuka. His 109 was hit from return fire from an IL2, but he landed it. And he had to bail out of a machine with a damaged engine, not from conbat.

He was shot down on August 12th 1943 when his plane was hit from return fire, again from an IL2. He belly landed his 109 and made it back to German lines.

Hartmann got 352 kills, with one P-51 that made it back with a damaged engine. However the RLM denied him (and many other pilots) a substantial number of kills as they didn't meet the criteria for awarding.

Tony

gabriel pagliarani · Post by **gabriel pagliarani** » 10 Jun 2003 14:55

It is obvious that all aces were as much brave as lucky. How many times do you think a normal pilot could be shot down during WW2 having some chance to speak about this with his own nephews when retired? Reply: only 1. Therefore men like Hartmann, Bader, Galland, Sakai, Boyington were ACES because LUCKY MEN. The others were not less brave: they were dead.

Nick Pears · Post by **Nick Pears** » 10 Jun 2003 21:03

gabriel pagliarani wrote:It is obvious that all aces were as much brave as lucky. How many times do you think a normal pilot could be shot down during WW2 having some chance to speak about this with his own nephews when retired? Reply: only 1. Therefore men like Hartmann, Bader, Galland, Sakai, Boyington were ACES because LUCKY MEN. The others were not less brave: they were dead.

I agree with you, but to rack up 352 kills, you've got to be doing something right.

Oleg Grigoryev · Post by **Oleg Grigoryev** » 10 Jun 2003 21:56

Largo Caballero wrote:
gabriel pagliarani wrote:It is obvious that all aces were as much brave as lucky. How many times do you think a normal pilot could be shot down during WW2 having some chance to speak about this with his own nephews when retired? Reply: only 1. Therefore men like Hartmann, Bader, Galland, Sakai, Boyington were ACES because LUCKY MEN. The others were not less brave: they were dead.
I agree with you, but to rack up 352 kills, you've got to be doing something right.

claims -not kills. as far as I recall even authors of The Blond Knight of Germany in regrds to his true talley.
I personally found sorties/kill ratio far more interesting than the finall score allone.

tonyh · Post by **tonyh** » 11 Jun 2003 12:34

In actual fact, his true tally was probably higher, I seem to remember reading something about his diary entries regarding having claims disallowed from the RLM. As said earlier, the RLM refused to award a lot of pilots claims, if they did not meet the criteria set down. Of course they were occasions of "good faith" awards, but in general they did not occur.

This is especally true after the over claiming in the battle of Britain led to a severe fog regarding the RAF's true strength.

The RLM's criteria for awarding claims was strict and it wasn't just laid down for a laugh. It was essential for the Luftwaffe, who were always in the minority when faced against their enemies to try and gauge enemy losses by accurately judging pilot's claims. This is especially true when one considers the sheer size of the battle area on the Russian front.

The RLM declared that it served no purpose to just award pilot claims willy-nilly. There was a very sound strategic purpose behind the RLM's strict award criteria.

Tony

mars · Post by **mars** » 11 Jun 2003 17:05

tonyh, Pilots are human, and human make mistake, so that it is also possible some of Hartman's comfirm kills were not real, for example Adolf Galland claimed 104 comfirmed kills on Western allies, among these kills, around 80-85 could be verified by Western allies record, if you applied same ratio to Hartman, I bet his "real kills" would be around 250-280, still a very very impressive achivement through.

Erich · Post by **Erich** » 11 Jun 2003 23:58

it doesn't matter what airforce U served with. In 1945 at least for Germany the action was hectic and many pilots including the aces did not have another including their wingman to confirm a victory whether an Allied bomber or fighter.......since their stafflen kameraden were shot down on a repeated(daily) basis.

352 kills is impressive though but look also at JG 52's over 11,000 kills. Who were they battling against in 1941-42 with superior fighter a/c ?
Granted things turned around in 1945 with superior numbers only against them......

~E

Caldric · Post by **Caldric** » 12 Jun 2003 00:30

Erich wrote: Granted things turned around in 1945 with superior numbers only against them......

~E

Really I thought they out numbered those Bloody Brits in 1940.

Was more then numbers that got them.

Erich · Post by **Erich** » 12 Jun 2003 00:35

yep it sure was...... "Fatty" was in charge.......doomed to failure

in any case I can tell you that many German pilots/crews did not score a single victory but were shot down many times with the nasty results. My cousin flying day fighters for one in late 44.

~E

Caldric · Post by **Caldric** » 12 Jun 2003 00:36

Erich wrote:yep it sure was...... "Fatty" was in charge.......doomed to failure

~E

LOL can not argue with that.

Caldric · Post by **Caldric** » 12 Jun 2003 00:37

Erich wrote:in any case I can tell you that many German pilots/crews did not score a single victory but were shot down many times with the nasty results. My cousin flying day fighters for one in late 44.

~E

Yes I do not doubt it. Are you talking about the lack of training and such later in the war?

Erich · Post by **Erich** » 12 Jun 2003 00:49

Caldric, in one cousins case it was being overwhelmed by P-51's of the 339th, 355th and 2nd Scouting Forces south of Misburg on 26 Nomember 1944. He had only possibly 5 missions under his belt, one in an attack on B-17's on the 21st of November 44 and then meeting his demise 5 days later while attacking either B-24's of the 445th or 491st bg. He didn't have a chance and over 38 pilots of JG 301 lost their lives. Almost 3/4r's of these kids should not have been up in the air but they did their duty and paid with their lives......

~E

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