JU 52 gun ship ?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Feb 2021 19:19

Hi Guys,

The following site shows Ju52s of the Condor Legion with a machine gun post in much the same spot, but not a turret: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=23496.0

This site has a photo of a large hatch open in the roof in the same spot, which seems to be two bulkheads long: http://hugojunkers.bplaced.net/junkers-ju52.html

To me it looks as though space for a turret in the right position may have been available.

Looking through the link Ironmachine put up earlier, one post says, "Ju 52 ND+AN was at Tarnewitz airfield from 1940 to 1944 serving as a testbed. It did not look anything like this drawing."

Perhaps the aircraft used as a test bed for the turret mounting?

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 09 Feb 2021 19:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Waleed Y. Majeed
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Waleed Y. Majeed » 09 Feb 2021 19:40

ND+AN - Yes, ju55dk/Junker posted the information in post mentioned above.
See viewtopic.php?f=49&t=243267

Waleed

Brady
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Brady » 10 Feb 2021 20:38

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Feb 2021 19:11
Hi Guys,

The illustration above in Post #1 was presumably based on something.

Do the markings ND+AN tell us anything?

Cheers,

Sid
Ju 52 ND+AN was at Tarnewitz airfield from 1940 to 1944 serving as a testbed. Id did not look anything like this drawing.
Junker
This was posted on the linked (above) thread from a while back

Richard Anderson
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Richard Anderson » 11 Feb 2021 01:30

As I mentioned in that other thread, ND+AN is a Stammkennzeichen rather than a Verbandskennzeichen, so does not identify a unit. It was applied as a radio code when the aircraft left the factory. The archived LEMB Stammkennzeichen Database provides no information on this aircraft other than it was a Ju 52/3m. Sorry, meant to post it in this thread.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Sid Guttridge
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Feb 2021 12:06

Hi Waleed, Brady and Richard Anderson,

Sorry, I may have wasted your time, as I added that information to my post shortly after sending it, but perhaps after you had already seen it.

Apologies,

Sid.

Brady
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Brady » 11 Feb 2021 18:33

To bad there are no, known?, photos of this interesting variant.

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Grzesio
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Grzesio » 11 Feb 2021 18:55

A picture of what could be a dorsal turret mounted on a Ju 52 was published by Manfred Griehl in his Deutsche Flugzeugbewaffnung bis 1945, p. 225. He suspected, only one Ju 52 had been converted as the Waffentraeger.

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danebrog
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by danebrog » 13 Feb 2021 11:14

The quasi-semi-official legend on this reads something like:
A dozen Ju 52/3 were modified in 1941 by Weser Flugzeugbau as convoy escorts with the open dorsal MG-15, HDL 151/20 dorsal turret with a 20 mm MG-151 near frame 6, (On some drawings also with LB 204 turret) two beam-mounted MG-15s, and the ventral 'dustbin' known from the auxiliary bomber version
Assigned to the Crete-based II/KG z. b. V. 1 to compensate the lack of escorts while flying support missions for Rommel´s DAK. Optionally labelled Ju52/3mg4e trop or Ju 52/3mg9e


The sources are then also only post-war publications, namely:
„Avions Militaires 1919-1939“ by Hachette hors-serie No.2
„Warplanes of the Third Reich“ by William Green
“Junkers Ju 52 in Action” by Squadron / Signal Publications
https://ju52archiv.de/varianten.htm

an alternative variant can be found at:
http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-A ... -3mg9e.htm
The template for this probably comes from here:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/df/77/fc ... 604e35.jpg
Here they are then deployed on the Eastern Front

All the sources mentioned above have only one thing in common: they leave it completely open which original sources they refer to.
No idea who copied from whom and when, but it is a nice example of how such legends then slowly mutate into "source-based facts".

Finally, something more substantial for the interested:
https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wo ... g-1939.pdf

Sid Guttridge
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Feb 2021 22:57

Hi danebrog,

A nice bit of trail following.

So, at the moment, the most we seem to know is that this may have been tried experimentally on a single aircraft, but we have no primary evidence of operational use.

Thanks for the last link. Next time I want to build a 1/1 scale Ju52 from scratch, I'll know just where to go!

Cheerrs,

Sid.

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Ro/Lt
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Ro/Lt » 16 Feb 2021 10:27

Sorry to go a bit of topic but the top of mind when reading the topic was to recall the Iron Annie comic series from the 80:s about a Ju52 crew that fitted 37 mm AT guns on their Tante Ju and went tank busting. Ah the memories...
http://britishcomicart.blogspot.com/20 ... e.html?m=1

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AnchorSteam
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by AnchorSteam » 16 Feb 2021 22:24

It would be one of my last choices for that job.

The Hs. 123 were kept in service until the last of them started to fall apart, but they always seemed too lightly armed for Ground Attack, to me.
Did anyone try to upgrade their armament during the war?
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danebrog
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by danebrog » 17 Feb 2021 10:19

Hs 123 V6 as a prototype aircraft for the C series. This planned further development with a closed cabin, more powerful BMW 123K engine with 960 hp take-off power, three-blade propeller and reinforced armament was abandoned in favor of the Ju 87.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Feb 2021 12:03

Double post.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 17 Feb 2021 20:09, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Feb 2021 12:04

Hi RO/Lt,

A little light relief is always welcome and you were definitely on thread, unlike the last two posts. Where they came from, I do not know!

Thanks,

Sid.

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AnchorSteam
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Re: JU 52 gun ship ?

Post by AnchorSteam » 17 Feb 2021 19:12

danebrog wrote:
17 Feb 2021 10:19
Hs 123 V6 as a prototype aircraft for the C series. This planned further development with a closed cabin, more powerful BMW 123K engine with 960 hp take-off power, three-blade propeller and reinforced armament was abandoned in favor of the Ju 87.
Well, that makes sense!
I asked because I have heard that re-starting production was seriuosly suggested halfway through the war. Something about the type's ability to loiter at low-level for an extended period of time had made it popular with the troops on the Russian Front.
The Italians had doubled the number of MGs on their Cr.42 and it had a respectable bomb-load (unlike the Cr.32) so I was wondering about the Hs.123.

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