Best Allied flying boat compared to large German flying boats

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Cantankerous
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Location: Newport Coast

Best Allied flying boat compared to large German flying boats

Post by Cantankerous » 03 May 2021 02:35

Hi, I'm eager for the forum's opinion on what was the best large German flying boat of World War II (built or unbuilt) compared to large Allied flying boats like Martin PBM Mariner, Martin PB2M/JRM Mars, Consolidated PBY Catalina, Consolidated PB2Y Coronado, Short Sunderland, and Short Shetland. Here are several candidates:

Blohm und Voss Bv 222
Blohm und Voss Bv 238
Dornier Do 214
Heinkel He 220

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Best Allied flying boat compared to large German flying boats

Post by daveshoup2MD » 03 May 2021 03:56

Cantankerous wrote:
03 May 2021 02:35
Hi, I'm eager for the forum's opinion on what was the best large German flying boat of World War II (built or unbuilt) compared to large Allied flying boats like Martin PBM Mariner, Martin PB2M/JRM Mars, Consolidated PBY Catalina, Consolidated PB2Y Coronado, Short Sunderland, and Short Shetland. Here are several candidates:

Blohm und Voss Bv 222
Blohm und Voss Bv 238
Dornier Do 214
Heinkel He 220
Kind of depends on your criteria for "best" and when; combat record, availability, range, payload, speed, etc.

It's worth noting that both the PBM and PBY ended up as amphibians, which illustrates the point that flying boats, by definition, were an obsolescent design approach (at best) by the time any of the four German designs you list would (or could have) been operational, in the case of the last three.

In terms of design era, the PBY first flew in 1935 and the aircraft was in squadron service in 1936-37, so it predates everything else on your list. The closest German equivalents would have been the Bv138 or the Do. 24, neither of which were in operational service until well after the PBY; the closest British, the Sunderland (slightly newer and larger) or the Singapore (older).

Cantankerous
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Location: Newport Coast

Re: Best Allied flying boat compared to large German flying boats

Post by Cantankerous » 03 May 2021 04:40

daveshoup2MD wrote:
03 May 2021 03:56
Cantankerous wrote:
03 May 2021 02:35
Hi, I'm eager for the forum's opinion on what was the best large German flying boat of World War II (built or unbuilt) compared to large Allied flying boats like Martin PBM Mariner, Martin PB2M/JRM Mars, Consolidated PBY Catalina, Consolidated PB2Y Coronado, Short Sunderland, and Short Shetland. Here are several candidates:

Blohm und Voss Bv 222
Blohm und Voss Bv 238
Dornier Do 214
Heinkel He 220
Kind of depends on your criteria for "best" and when; combat record, availability, range, payload, speed, etc.

It's worth noting that both the PBM and PBY ended up as amphibians, which illustrates the point that flying boats, by definition, were an obsolescent design approach (at best) by the time any of the four German designs you list would (or could have) been operational, in the case of the last three.

In terms of design era, the PBY first flew in 1935 and the aircraft was in squadron service in 1936-37, so it predates everything else on your list. The closest German equivalents would have been the Bv138 or the Do. 24, neither of which were in operational service until well after the PBY; the closest British, the Sunderland (slightly newer and larger) or the Singapore (older).
I wanted to emphasize speed, range, and payload criteria. I do have to admit that the PBY was smaller than the Bv 222, Bv 238, Do 214, and He 220 I listed. The word amphibian in a strict sense refers to seaplanes that land on both water and land, and a flying boat is strictly designed to operate from water only, but you're right that the PBY was both a flying boat and an amphibian, even though only the PBM-5A variant of PBM was an amphibian (the vast majority of PBMs were not built with retractable wheels.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Best Allied flying boat compared to large German flying boats

Post by daveshoup2MD » 04 May 2021 05:29

Cantankerous wrote:
03 May 2021 04:40
daveshoup2MD wrote:
03 May 2021 03:56
Cantankerous wrote:
03 May 2021 02:35
Hi, I'm eager for the forum's opinion on what was the best large German flying boat of World War II (built or unbuilt) compared to large Allied flying boats like Martin PBM Mariner, Martin PB2M/JRM Mars, Consolidated PBY Catalina, Consolidated PB2Y Coronado, Short Sunderland, and Short Shetland. Here are several candidates:

Blohm und Voss Bv 222
Blohm und Voss Bv 238
Dornier Do 214
Heinkel He 220
Kind of depends on your criteria for "best" and when; combat record, availability, range, payload, speed, etc.

It's worth noting that both the PBM and PBY ended up as amphibians, which illustrates the point that flying boats, by definition, were an obsolescent design approach (at best) by the time any of the four German designs you list would (or could have) been operational, in the case of the last three.

In terms of design era, the PBY first flew in 1935 and the aircraft was in squadron service in 1936-37, so it predates everything else on your list. The closest German equivalents would have been the Bv138 or the Do. 24, neither of which were in operational service until well after the PBY; the closest British, the Sunderland (slightly newer and larger) or the Singapore (older).
I wanted to emphasize speed, range, and payload criteria. I do have to admit that the PBY was smaller than the Bv 222, Bv 238, Do 214, and He 220 I listed. The word amphibian in a strict sense refers to seaplanes that land on both water and land, and a flying boat is strictly designed to operate from water only, but you're right that the PBY was both a flying boat and an amphibian, even though only the PBM-5A variant of PBM was an amphibian (the vast majority of PBMs were not built with retractable wheels.
In terms of speed, range, and payload, the PB2Y and Sunderland are the earlier designs; of the six later designs, only the JRM and Bv222 really were ever operational, and the JRM was as a transport. The JRM was a heavier aircraft, overall, with more capacity and longer range; speed was about the same. The Bv222, with six engines, was more complex in terms of factors that would have an impact on operations. As a transport, the JRM was more capable, but then, so was a C-74, C-97, or C-124.

By the time any of the later aircraft could have been in service in substantial numbers, long-range land based aircraft were much more capable at maritime patrol and ASW, and carrier-based aircraft (in terms of the USN and RN) would have made the operational use of flying boats as maritime patrol aircraft in the eastern Atlantic "questionable," at best.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Best Allied flying boat compared to large German flying boats

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 May 2021 10:07

Hi Guys,

Surely comparing "flyingboats" is a bit like comparing "landplanes"?

Flyingboats were built for multiple different purposes. The Spruce Goose and the Supermarine Walrus were both "flyingboats" but to compare them is a bit like comparing a Siuperfortress with a Westland Lysander for landplanes.

I would suggest that the question needs refining.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 9035
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Best Allied flying boat compared to large German flying boats

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 May 2021 10:08

Hi Guys,

Surely comparing "flyingboats" is a bit like comparing "landplanes"?

Flyingboats were built for multiple different purposes. The Spruce Goose and the Supermarine Walrus were both "flyingboats" but to compare them is a bit like comparing a Superfortress with a Westland Lysander for landplanes.

I would suggest that the question needs refining.

Cheers,

Sid.

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