Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

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Panzerspitze
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Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Panzerspitze » 17 Sep 2021 11:08

Seeing Die Deutsche Wochenschau frequently mentions "ein besonders erfolgen FlaK", is there such a tally kept anywhere, officially or unofficially, for aircraft and/or ground targets destroyed by individual FlaK guns, Luftwaffe, Heer, Kriegsmarine, or Waffen-SS, since FlaK get victory rings painted on their barrels just like their non-FlaK (Kanone, Haubitz, etc.) counterparts?

Larry D.
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Larry D. » 17 Sep 2021 14:50

Panzerspitze wrote:
17 Sep 2021 11:08
Seeing Die Deutsche Wochenschau frequently mentions "ein besonders erfolgen FlaK", is there such a tally kept anywhere, officially or unofficially, for aircraft and/or ground targets destroyed by individual FlaK guns, Luftwaffe, Heer, Kriegsmarine, or Waffen-SS, since FlaK get victory rings painted on their barrels just like their non-FlaK (Kanone, Haubitz, etc.) counterparts?
No. Not even for individual Abteilungen or Batterien. Sadly, any such records were destroyed between August 1944 and the end of the war.

L.

Panzerspitze
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Panzerspitze » 20 Sep 2021 06:12

Correction: It should have been "ein besonders erfolgreichen FlaK".

Panzerspitze
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Panzerspitze » 20 Sep 2021 06:12

Larry D. wrote:
17 Sep 2021 14:50
Panzerspitze wrote:
17 Sep 2021 11:08
Seeing Die Deutsche Wochenschau frequently mentions "ein besonders erfolgen FlaK", is there such a tally kept anywhere, officially or unofficially, for aircraft and/or ground targets destroyed by individual FlaK guns, Luftwaffe, Heer, Kriegsmarine, or Waffen-SS, since FlaK get victory rings painted on their barrels just like their non-FlaK (Kanone, Haubitz, etc.) counterparts?
No. Not even for individual Abteilungen or Batterien. Sadly, any such records were destroyed between August 1944 and the end of the war.

L.
Thanks. Schade.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Sep 2021 10:42

Hi Guys,

By way of comparison, I have the history of the 15th (Isle of Man) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment R. A. (T.A.), (Ack-Ack by Curwen Clague), next to me.

The Isle of Man was not part of the United Kingdom so this unit might be considered it national army. (There were also 1st and 2nd Manx Battalions and a Royal Artillery troop of the Home Guard for the island's own defence.)

This regiment was the highest claiming of all British light AA regiments and probably the most widely experienced.

The regiment served in home defence in 1940-41, Italian East Africa and Crete in 1941, North Africa in 1941-43, Italy in 1943 and North-West Europe in 1944-45. During the last three years it was part of 7th Armoured Division.

During this period it claimed 389 enemy aircraft destroyed, probably destroyed or damaged, 266 of them in North Africa.

Of the 389, just over 200 hundred were apparently recorded as destroyed.

The regiment began with 36 40mm Bofors guns in 1940/41, which increased to 54 by late 1942 and 72 by early 1944. Some Bofors were replaced by quadruple Browning .5 machine guns in 1945.

Thus claims of aircraft destroyed were about three per gun!

Of course, claims and the reality may well differ considerably, but it might serve by way of comparison with anything found on similar German AAA units.

Cheers,

Sid.

Larry D.
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Larry D. » 20 Sep 2021 14:40

Interesting, Sid.
There were plenty of Luftwaffe Flak regiments that fought at the front in support of the Army (Heer), especially in the East, that ran up huge claims in aircraft, tanks, vehicles, emplacements, etc. For example, Flak-Rgt. 30 reported: "between 6 and 23 June 1944, the Rgt. claimed 96 aircraft, 5 freight gliders, 10 tanks, 3 armored cars and 5 other vehicles destroyed or damaged" (CX/MSS/R225/120). And that was in Normandy in 1944. Rgt. claims in the East were much higher.

L.

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Yuri
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Yuri » 21 Sep 2021 05:35

Larry D. wrote:
20 Sep 2021 14:40
Interesting, Sid.
There were plenty of Luftwaffe Flak regiments that fought at the front in support of the Army (Heer), especially in the East, that ran up huge claims in aircraft, tanks, vehicles, emplacements, etc. For example, Flak-Rgt. 30 reported: "between 6 and 23 June 1944, the Rgt. claimed 96 aircraft, 5 freight gliders, 10 tanks, 3 armored cars and 5 other vehicles destroyed or damaged" (CX/MSS/R225/120). And that was in Normandy in 1944. Rgt. claims in the East were much higher.

L.
For example, the claims of the FlakAbteilungs acting as part of I.Lw.FlakCorps (mot.) for the period from 15.5.42 to 31.8.42 and with a total from 22.6.41.
LwFlakKorps1_Erfolge_31-08-42_.jpg
The I.Lw.FlakCorps (mot.) acted together with the HG "South"
Here is no information on the 10.Lw.FlakDivision (mot.), which in July 42 dropped out of the I.Lw.FlakCorps (mot.) and was included in the Air Group "Don" (VIII.AirCorps)
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Sep 2021 06:26

Hi Guys,

I guess the next question is: How accurate were these claims?

Fighter pilots, who had some ability to follow a victim down to impact, sometimes overclaimed three-fold. Flak didn't have this ability in most cases.

What were the confirmation procedures for Flak? How did they avoid multiple claim for the same target?

Is there any comparison study of flak claims compared with actual losses? Are there any case studies?

For example, we know the extent of British and French heavy aircraft losses to flak over the Sedan bridges in mid May 1940, but what were the flak's actual claims?

And if Flak units were preparing such detailed lists of claims, who was compiling them centrally and where are their collated reports?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Yuri
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Yuri » 21 Sep 2021 06:53

Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Sep 2021 06:26
Hi Guys,

I guess the next question is: How accurate were these claims?

Fighter pilots, who had some ability to follow a victim down to impact, sometimes overclaimed three-fold. Flak didn't have this ability in most cases.

What were the confirmation procedures for Flak? How did they avoid multiple claim for the same target?

Is there any comparison study of flak claims compared with actual losses? Are there any case studies?

For example, we know the extent of British and French heavy aircraft losses to flak over the Sedan bridges in mid May 1940, but what were the flak's actual claims?

And if Flak units were preparing such detailed lists of claims, who was compiling them centrally and where are their collated reports?

Cheers,

Sid.
There is a manual for anti-aircraft artillery, compiled following the results of the first year of the war with the Soviet Union.
This is a very extensive document, which provides information about the facts of overestimating the losses of enemy aircraft from anti-aircraft artillery fire.
Instructions are given on:
- when the shelled plane should be considered shot down,
- how to determine who shot down the plane, if several guns (platoons, batteries, abteilungs) were fired,
- what information should be provided to confirm the fact of the downing of the aircraft, etc., etc.
These requirements in the document are very strict and if the instructions were followed, then the information about downed aircraft by anti-aircraft artillery can be considered close to true (at least for Lw.FlakDivisions (mot.) operating in the East in 1942-43.)
I copied this document from the TSAMO website and will try to find it on my disk.

Panzerspitze
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Panzerspitze » 21 Sep 2021 08:46

Check out, for example, how many victory rings this foreign (non-German) looking Marine-FlaK in Florence, Italy from DDW Nr. 727 had. If it's the same gun shown later in the same footage, the narrator (Harry Giese?) claimed 40(!?) shotdowns "within a short time" and the Obermaat in charge was awarded the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold.
Image
Image
Full footage can be seen starting from ~05:49 mark:
http://archive.org/details/1944-08-10-D ... nschau-727

And here's the "besonders elfolgreichen FlaK-geschutz" (3,7cm?) on the Eastern Front from DDW Nr. 601 with 25 downed aircraft credited on the gun shield.
Image

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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Larry D. » 21 Sep 2021 15:02

@ Yuri: splendid!! I spent 6 months going through (researching) TsAMO 500 Fond 12476 but I didn't see this tabulation. :o :thumbsup:

@ Sid: all of the details on claims and confirmations can be found here, along with everything else about the Luftwaffen-Flakwaffe:

NARA WashDC, RG 319 Entry 47, 141/141a-142 Handbooks, Germany (military): M.I.15/War Office, “Handbook on Flak”, 1946-47. 10 volumes (mimeographed). Thousands of pages. [Covers every aspect of the subject in exquisite detail.]

L.

Panzerspitze
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Re: Highest scoring individual FlaK, including non-Luftwaffe ones such as Marine-FlaK?

Post by Panzerspitze » 03 Oct 2021 13:47

Shown in Die Deutsche Wochenschau Nr. 656, Bootsmannsmaat Karl Jörß became the first NCO (Unteroffizier) of the Kriegsmarine to receive the Ritterkreuz for 12 aircraft shotdowns as Flakführer of a transport ship.

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