Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

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Richard58
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Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by Richard58 » 22 Nov 2021 21:29

Hi
I'm looking for info of Luftwaffe losses on the 6th of march 1944 (the Berlin raid).

Wikipedia, youtube and several US sites mentioned numbers like 160 to 170 fighters, a german site says 48 single engine and 16 twin engined fighters lost.

I find it hard to belive that Luftwaffe lost 160 fighters in a single engagement already in march 1944, at least before the allies had close up fighter bases in the european mainland. Do someone have more info?

Larry D.
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by Larry D. » 27 Nov 2021 18:42

Go with the German figure (48 + 16). The Allied (American) figure is the number claimed and is almost always 2 or 3 times the actual number.

L.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Nov 2021 00:19

Richard58 wrote:
22 Nov 2021 21:29
Hi
I'm looking for info of Luftwaffe losses on the 6th of march 1944 (the Berlin raid).

Wikipedia, youtube and several US sites mentioned numbers like 160 to 170 fighters, a german site says 48 single engine and 16 twin engined fighters lost.

I find it hard to belive that Luftwaffe lost 160 fighters in a single engagement already in march 1944, at least before the allies had close up fighter bases in the european mainland. Do someone have more info?
For the 6 March 1944 Berlin Raid the Germans reported scrambling 458 fighters and losing 54 confirmed lost, plus 9 missing, and 23 with 60% damage or greater.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

histan
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by histan » 29 Nov 2021 03:15

Hi Richard

Interested in your source.
Caldwell [Day Fighters in Defence of the Reich] gives a total of 75 destroyed and 22 damaged, with a detailed breakdown of losses by unit and aircraft type.

Regards

John

Richard Anderson
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by Richard Anderson » 29 Nov 2021 06:20

histan wrote:
29 Nov 2021 03:15
Hi Richard

Interested in your source.
Caldwell [Day Fighters in Defence of the Reich] gives a total of 75 destroyed and 22 damaged, with a detailed breakdown of losses by unit and aircraft type.

Regards

John
Hi John, I've quoted it many times before. It is AIR 77/18, Scientific Advisor to the Air Ministry, German Statistics on German Fighter Reaction to Anglo-American Bombing Attacks, Science 2 Memo. No. 151, dated March 1949, although the report is actually from early 1947.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

histan
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by histan » 29 Nov 2021 11:03

Thanks Richard

Sorry that I missed that reference earlier. I worked in Science 2 in the late 1970s!

It looks like it was a good piece of work that has stood the test of time - given that Caldwell spent a number of years getting his data together and they are not that far apart.

Interesting to see how long it took for the Germans themselves to get a good picture of their losses. Schmid quotes figures from the KTB of I Jagd Korps as of 12:00 07.03.1944 - 18 aircraft destroyed and 39 aircraft more than 60% damaged.

Regards

John

Larry D.
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by Larry D. » 29 Nov 2021 15:49

Dr. Jochen Prien, the preeminent authority on Luftwaffe fighter operations, had 12 pages on the 6 March Berlin mission in Teil 2, pages 770-782:

Prien, Jochen and Peter Rodeike. Jagdgeschwader 1 und 11: Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung von 1939 bis 1945. 3 Teile (volumes). Eutin: Struve-Druck, c. 1993-94. Teil 1 (1939-43, ISBN: 3-923457-21-9). Teil 2 (1944, ISBN: 3-923457-243). Teil 3 (1944-1945, ISBN: 3-923457-251). Hb (oversize). Dj. 1,704p. Heavily illus. Maps. Dwgs. Tables. Numerous appendices incl. loss and victory lists. Name index.

He provides a table on p.771 that gives all of the Luftwaffe losses in aircraft and pilots by unit as:

Pilots KIA: 36
Pilots WIA: 27

Aircraft 60% to 100%: 66
Aircraft under 60%: 28

L.

histan
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by histan » 29 Nov 2021 16:31

Caldwell lists 15 books by Prien in his bibliography, including the three mentioned above, so he will have been aware of the figures quoted.

It would be interesting to where the differences are.

I will produce the Table he provides

Regards

John

Richard58
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by Richard58 » 29 Nov 2021 17:20

Larry D. wrote:
27 Nov 2021 18:42
Go with the German figure (48 + 16). The Allied (American) figure is the number claimed and is almost always 2 or 3 times the actual number.

L.
2 or 3 times the actual numbers? ...In the first Schweifurt/Regensburg mission the USAAF gunners claimed 288 german fighters (fighter escort another 32), Luftwaffe lost 27. Which raises another question. I get it that the bomber gunners got a lot of overkill credits, for morale reasons, but how much did the US intelligence branch really belive in these claims?

Richard58
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Re: Luftwaffe losses in the Berlin raid 6 march 1944.

Post by Richard58 » 29 Nov 2021 17:24

Larry D. wrote:
29 Nov 2021 15:49
Dr. Jochen Prien, the preeminent authority on Luftwaffe fighter operations, had 12 pages on the 6 March Berlin mission in Teil 2, pages 770-782:

Prien, Jochen and Peter Rodeike. Jagdgeschwader 1 und 11: Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung von 1939 bis 1945. 3 Teile (volumes). Eutin: Struve-Druck, c. 1993-94. Teil 1 (1939-43, ISBN: 3-923457-21-9). Teil 2 (1944, ISBN: 3-923457-243). Teil 3 (1944-1945, ISBN: 3-923457-251). Hb (oversize). Dj. 1,704p. Heavily illus. Maps. Dwgs. Tables. Numerous appendices incl. loss and victory lists. Name index.

He provides a table on p.771 that gives all of the Luftwaffe losses in aircraft and pilots by unit as:

Pilots KIA: 36
Pilots WIA: 27

Aircraft 60% to 100%: 66
Aircraft under 60%: 28

L.
Thanks for the interresting book infos, I will check them out.

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