Luftwaffe aces' overclaiming.....

[Sid Guttridge]

A Youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB2VUwQ55Pk) has some interesting research on Luftwaffe ace overclaiming.

It suggests that on the Eastern Front the pilots were more slack and the overclaiming rate was about 1.8 to 1.

However, in the West they were stricter and 80%-90% of claims were likely accurate.

It also found that the pilots themselves varied a lot, some being very close to their claimed scores. Most shocking was one ace with over 200 claimed victories who may only have had 30-40! However, no name is given.

I guess some overscoring is inevitable and pilots have different personal standards, so no real surprise in this. However one looks at it, the leading German pilots had very high scores, even when adjusted for overclaiming.

Cheers,

Sid.

[von thoma]

On the same matter :

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=84957&hilit=scores

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=58127&hilit=scores

[ShindenKai]

Most shocking was one ace with over 200 claimed victories who may only have had 30-40! However, no name is given.
Sid.

I said it's more shocking to repeat obvious nonsense. If no name is given, its literally USELESS information.

[Mannheim]

Some years ago I had the good fortune to be able to sit in the cockpit of the Bf 109 currently in the Australian War Memorial in Canberra. I am - or was then - six feet tall and the first thing I noticed was not the cramped cockpit but the extremely limited vision. As a youngster, I had the same naive fantasy as many other youngsters of being a great fighter pilot and glancing over the cockpit side to see my next victims cruising below me. However, in front of me was a huge engine - a line drawn from the top of which came to just below my head, roughly shoulder-height - which severely limited my forward vision. On both sides was a wide wing, preventing any downward observation Ever since then I have wondered how in real life a pilot could see below him. I imagine the pilot must have periodically rocked or dived the aircraft which invites another question: how did the pilot know that the aircraft he had attacked had in fact been forced down? In most cases it would have been impractical - and dangerous - to follow the aircraft down until it crashed. I do know that the wingman generally had to support the claim but even he wouldn't have followed the aircraft down. I'm guessing the claim for a destroyed aircraft would probably have to have been an estimate gauged by the apparent amount of damage caused to the aircraft and its subsequent loss of altitude. This could account for overclaiming on both sides. Obviously, if the pilot bailed out, there would be no problem.
I imagine too that my observations about the lack of visibility below would be the same for all or most low-wing monoplanes although the bubble canopy on many aircraft obviously improved the view forward. I'd be interested if anyone has any comments to make on this.

[von thoma]

Most shocking was one ace with over 200 claimed victories who may only have had 30-40! However, no name is given.
Sid.

I said it's more shocking to repeat obvious nonsense. If no name is given, its literally USELESS information.

That reminds me of this rather similar story :

Squadron Commander Asher Lee has observed :

'' Men like Mölders, Wick and Marseille were undoubtedly first class pilots, comparable to any of their Allied Aviation
opponents ; but his mammoth claims about the victories achieved in air combat, which are sometimes around the two
hundred victories, they are absurdly exaggerated. It is undoubtedly, in any case, that this glorification of the big ' Stars '
it often served to goad other young fighter pilots. In a certain occasion, a young German ace whom he will not mention
( but who is one of the three mentioned above) returned from a flight over the English Channel claiming to have shot
down three Spitfires. He ground personnel noted, however, that the machine guns had not been fired and that the plane's
ammunition it was intact. The rumor spread through the squadron and even transcended other flight units. The number
of the victories of the interested party increased, certainly, but -his actions fell- and not much later he went on to play a
advisor position ''

I remember getting very angry when I read this with 17 years old.

But there's still more.....Roland P. Beamont, has noted the following: ''.. accounts of the individual victories of the great
aces are exciting reading but hardly credible. One is inclined to think that, by accepting the German statistics of losses
as proven facts., according to the author (*), have been ignored, with a certain naivety, the circumstances in which these
statistics were made, drawn up in a Germany tyrannized by the propaganda of Hitler ''. (*) Edward H. Sims.

German fighter pilots seemed no better than we were in 1940, and they weren't nearly as good at 1944. It is unconvincing
that a simple difference in the methods of recording victories gives us an impression so absolutely wrong of the powers of
the German aces.

But here names are given... Finally, here is the comment of the RAF Group Captain J.E. 'Johnny 'Johnson, who with his thirty
and eight victories tops the list of British Aces of World War II:

"In fact, it is possible to verify some of the statements of a very well-known German pilot who has been qualified of ' virtuous '
without rival in the in the hunter's task. His big day in the Western Desert was September 1, 1942, when he notched up seventeen
victories, eight of them in the space of ten minutes. However, our own reports indicate that we lost only one total of eleven
airplanes, including two Hurricane, type of plane that he does not mention. Furthermore: some of our losses took place when
he was on land. Of course he is referring to Hans Joachim Marseille.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi ShindenKai,

You post, "I said it's more shocking to repeat obvious nonsense. If no name is given, its literally USELESS information."

Well, I certainly wouldn't base a PhD on it, but it can't be dismissed as "obvious nonsense".

The guys who did the research have generally confirmed high levels of German scoring, so if, using the same methodology, one individual protrudes as an obvious outlier, it is of interest. It would, of course, be far preferable to name names, if only to clear the others, but that is beyond my control. I am just the messenger.

Besides, 30-40 victories is till a very respectable score, so whoever he may be, he is not a complete charlatan.

Cheers,

Sid.

[ShindenKai]

Most shocking was one ace with over 200 claimed victories who may only have had 30-40! However, no name is given.
Sid.

I said it's more shocking to repeat obvious nonsense. If no name is given, its literally USELESS information.

That reminds me of this rather similar story :

Squadron Commander Asher Lee has observed :

'' Men like Mölders, Wick and Marseille were undoubtedly first class pilots, comparable to any of their Allied Aviation
opponents ; but his mammoth claims about the victories achieved in air combat, which are sometimes around the two
hundred victories, they are absurdly exaggerated. It is undoubtedly, in any case, that this glorification of the big ' Stars '
it often served to goad other young fighter pilots. In a certain occasion, a young German ace whom he will not mention
( but who is one of the three mentioned above) returned from a flight over the English Channel claiming to have shot
down three Spitfires. He ground personnel noted, however, that the machine guns had not been fired and that the plane's
ammunition it was intact. The rumor spread through the squadron and even transcended other flight units. The number
of the victories of the interested party increased, certainly, but -his actions fell- and not much later he went on to play a
advisor position ''

I remember getting very angry when I read this with 17 years old.

But there's still more.....Roland P. Beamont, has noted the following: ''.. accounts of the individual victories of the great
aces are exciting reading but hardly credible. One is inclined to think that, by accepting the German statistics of losses
as proven facts., according to the author (*), have been ignored, with a certain naivety, the circumstances in which these
statistics were made, drawn up in a Germany tyrannized by the propaganda of Hitler ''. (*) Edward H. Sims.

German fighter pilots seemed no better than we were in 1940, and they weren't nearly as good at 1944. It is unconvincing
that a simple difference in the methods of recording victories gives us an impression so absolutely wrong of the powers of
the German aces.

But here names are given... Finally, here is the comment of the RAF Group Captain J.E. 'Johnny 'Johnson, who with his thirty
and eight victories tops the list of British Aces of World War II:

"In fact, it is possible to verify some of the statements of a very well-known German pilot who has been qualified of ' virtuous '
without rival in the in the hunter's task. His big day in the Western Desert was September 1, 1942, when he notched up seventeen
victories, eight of them in the space of ten minutes. However, our own reports indicate that we lost only one total of eleven
airplanes, including two Hurricane, type of plane that he does not mention. Furthermore: some of our losses took place when
he was on land. Of course he is referring to Hans Joachim Marseille.

That's a much better accounting. I'd love to see a thorough break-down of Marseille's claims vs actual Allied losses.

[hucks216]

Verified Victories: Top JG52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45 by Daniel & Gabor Horvath does a good job of verifying the claims of some of JG-52's top aces against known losses and it makes for interesting reading. Erich Hartmann comes out of it with just 22% of his claims being matched to a verified loss whereas Helmut Lipfert has a 93% confirmation rate.

[LineDoggie]

Same for Soviet aces and Snipers vastly overclaiming

[hucks216]

Same for Soviet aces and Snipers vastly overclaiming

I think the majority of the German big claimers whether it was the fighter aces, Hans-Ulrich Rudel or Michael Wittmann etc have to have their claims taken with a big pinch of salt.

[ShindenKai]

I think the majority of the German big claimers whether it was the fighter aces, Hans-Ulrich Rudel or Michael Wittmann etc have to have their claims taken with a big pinch of salt.

I'm inclined to agree with you to an extent in regards to Rudel, as I've never seen/read of anyone thoroughly dissecting his claims, however he did survive the war while flying most of his combat sorties in the dog of an aircraft known as the Ju-87, which means he his skill level in the Ju-87 was FAR above nearly all other Stuka pilots and above that of the Soviet pilots that came after him.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi ShindenKai,

It would presumably be very difficult to check tank claims by Rudel, as most would presumably either have been at or just behind an advancing Soviet front and Stukas didn't apparently have gun cameras. The same would probably be true of any other aerial claims of tank losses by any air force at the time. At least aerial victories can often be seen going down by multiple witnesses but there is no prolonged descent by a destroyed tank.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I should add that this is not a peculiarly Luftwaffe problem. Post war checks (by Christopher Shores?) using squadron records of both sides found that both British and Italians overclaimed by a factor of three during the Albanian Campaign, partly due to heavy cloud cover and the mountainous terrain.

Cheers,

Sid.

[gebhk]

It would presumably be very difficult to check tank claims by Rudel, as most would presumably either have been at or just behind an advancing Soviet front and Stukas didn't apparently have gun cameras.

Even more so that the Soviets went in for elaborate fake tank mock-ups stuffed full of ignitable material and wet straw to produce a nice black smoking fire when hit so as to persuade the likes of Rudel that they were doing a grand job of destroying the enemy; effectively drawing attention away from the real tanks.... . My late uncle, not averse to the occassional sarcasm, suggested Rudel's Golden Oak Leaves would have been better replaced with a straw wreath.......

[von thoma]

Even more so that the Soviets went in for elaborate fake tank mock-ups stuffed full of ignitable material and wet straw to produce a nice black smoking fire when hit so as to persuade the likes of Rudel that they were doing a grand job of destroying the enemy; effectively drawing attention away from the real tanks.... . My late uncle, not averse to the occassional sarcasm, suggested Rudel's Golden Oak Leaves would have been better replaced with a straw wreath.......

Where did you hear that story ? Sounds like a Chinese tale...

Hans Rudel achievements were very well detailed and followed by his entire StG 2 Immelmann Unit.