why using Fw190D to escort taking off and landing?

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grunherz
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why using Fw190D to escort taking off and landing?

Post by grunherz » 06 Aug 2003 13:46

in the late of WWII, some the Luftwaffe Geschwader equiped with jet fighter such as Me 262, and the 262s were easily attacked by enemy fighters when they taking off and landing. so some unit such as JV44 using other propeller fighters to escort 262s when they were in low speed.
so far as i know, JV44 used Fw190d as the escort aircraft, but D-9s are high attitude interceptor, its low attitude and low speed manueverbility is not good, were they suitable for escorting landing and taking off? why the Luftwaffe not use 109K or Gs as a escort aircraft?


thanx

gus

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 06 Aug 2003 15:23

FW 190 D "long nose" was not designed as high ceiling interceptor: the wing was the same of std. FW 190 A "short nose". Ta 152 H was the Kurt Tank's design for such an interceptor. A lot of oddities were written about the performances of Me 262 and not only in this forum. The truth was in the very poor reliability of the underpowered J.Jumo turbo engine: the thrust control was very poorly sensitive and the "thrust feed back" had a gap measured in many seconds. In other words there was a huge gap between the action of opening the throttles and the resulting thrust increase: in this condition it was very hard a final approach "gliding" at high speed with a so reduced thrust control. Devices as "jet reverses" which allow a more controlled ground approach with the engines yet in full thrust, were far to be to be discovered in 1945. Any time you travel by jet, you can hear clearly the engines increasing their loud when flaps and the landing gear are extended. The loud is proportional to thrust and a wide amount of jettisoned hot exhausts are shot in the direction of motion: the pilot by controlling the action of such "reverses" can by-pass suddenly the thrust from backward to frontward and viceversa, controlling the plane alignement to the approaching path in the easy way. This action was not allowed on Me 262: its approach was very close to a motorless glide. The old incredible F 104 Starfighter used a "super-reverse" device: hot air spilled directly from the last stage of the compressor was blown directly on the upper side of its tiny wings. A giant air cushion changed the profile and extension of these. It was like having invisible wider wings made of hot air. As result the mighty powerful F104 needed shorter runways at ground respect with Me 262! No other plane ever built was more similar than F 104 to the Bf 109 per war attitudes and effective performances: but only the very best NATO pilots were able to obtain top performances from it. Exactly as per Bf 109...

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grunherz
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Post by grunherz » 06 Aug 2003 16:31

thanx.
it's my mistake to take Fw190D-9 as a high ceiling interceptor.

could anyone tell me how did those escort plane work?

what should they do in an escort mission?

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Locke
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Post by Locke » 07 Aug 2003 11:33

what should they do in an escort mission?

They should keep their eyes open for enemy fighters and defend Me262s.

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Post by MadderCat » 07 Aug 2003 12:44

hi

the escort planes guarded the "gartenzaun" (air field) against
incming enemy fighters (low- and highlevel attackers) and bombers.
they were guided normally by air space controler (radar etc.)

in normal case Fw190D-9 were circeling around the air field
in order to scare/fight off enemy planes while the Me262s were landing

my 2 cents

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 07 Aug 2003 14:53

MadderCat wrote:hi

the escort planes guarded the "gartenzaun" (air field) against
incming enemy fighters (low- and highlevel attackers) and bombers.
they were guided normally by air space controler (radar etc.)

in normal case Fw190D-9 were circeling around the air field
in order to scare/fight off enemy planes while the Me262s were landing

my 2 cents

MadderCat
More exactly the couple of Fw 190 D-9 had the charge to keep free the landing path or the V-2 climbing path (nothing to share with V1 and V2 weapons: v means vector and v1 is the safety vector of taking off in the while v2 is the climbing vector after gear-up) any incoming "cat". This allied tactic was called "fight for mice" and the mice were Me-262: 2 "cats" were ever ready for interception on air strips closest to the front-line with pilots in the cockpit and engines ever working, 24H/24H. Any time the Tower got the alert, a "mouse" had been jusy detected from radars or recce. The couple of Tempests or Mustangs called "cats" immediately taked off for intercepting the "mice" just over the German landing strip. The approach of "cats" was at full speed 0 level in the direction of the German landing strip and vectored in the same direction and versus of the strip. F.e. if the strip was a 27N the cats will approach the strip in order to fly over all the strip at max speed 0 level and in the same direction (from E to W) of the German "mice" when landing or taking-off. The counter measure was a couple of German "dogs" on Fw 190 D cruising at 2-4000 mt all around the strip, disposed at the tips of the 5-6km diameter circle centered on the German tower. The "dogs" were obliged to fly with position lights on to avoid the flak to open fire on those friends: when an allied "cat" was sightened, the closest german "dog" immediately dived in the direction closer to the landing path and with a good luck he had a good chance to shot down or disturb only the rush of the "cats" over the gartenzaun. This incredible high speed close combat generally happened at sunset in full winter. Major Nowotny (..Green hart..) was killed by a "cat" during such an operation. This rough, harsh, dangerous but effective "low level bandit interdiction" tactic is at very today teached to rooky NATO "combat ready" pilots. "Fight for mice".

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 07 Aug 2003 16:20

Actually the D-9 was used as a high escort fighter and in several cases I. and II./JG 301 flew escort to its Schwere gruppe III./JG 301 flying the Fw 190A-8 and A-9 attacking US heavies.

The D-9 flew protective escort to Kommando Nowotny and in JV 44 Galland Circus only as JG 7 used heavy fla defences, especially the Flakvierling 2cm weapons. It had no high protective escorts.

Kommando Nowotny had "new" protection from the first gruppe to operate the D-9 and that was III./JG 54 where the pilots were simply overwhelmed by US and RAF fighters.

~E

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Post by Scott Smith » 08 Aug 2003 02:44

The FW 190D9 was a pure air-superiority fighter, fast and maneuverable, and able to compete with the P-51 Mustang and had similar performance at bomber escort altitudes. The Bf 109K4 had better performance for top cover and thus an edge over the P-51. At high altitude the GM-1 nitrous oxide injection system boosted horsepower for a short time period. The FW 190A would have been a good escort for Me 262s around the airfields as it had good performance at low altitudes with the MW-50 methanol-water injection system which compensated for lower octance German aviation gasoline and allowed more throttle at denser altitudes where predetonation would have occurred. Patroling around airbases and German airspace is just the roll that a single-engine jet would be good for like the He 162 or better yet, the Blohm & Voss BV 211. That would save scarce aviation gasoline.
:)

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Post by Erich » 08 Aug 2003 02:55

Hate to disagree my friend but nothing could top the performance of the P-51D at medium or high altitude except for the Ta 152 but we have no information that the two ever really me in air combat, only the chase onto Kurt Tanks prototype whcih he easily kicked up a notch and left the Mustangs sitting.....

now to make something a little bit more clear, when the two units with a high cover protection and that being the Me 262, the German escorts were to fly up at medium altitude to keep the P-51's in aerial combat and away from the jets landing and taking off. There was a prtective perimter that the German escorts could fly and fight into and the unknown area then was defended by loads of murderous 2cm and 3.7cm fla.

The escorts(Luftwaffe) themselves were only to protect the jet airfields and were not allowed to gain altitude to take on the US heavy bomber formations. When the units KG 51, 54 and JG 7, JV 44 attacked the American bombers they had no protective escort between 20-30,000 feet and attacked on their own....

~E

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Post by Scott Smith » 08 Aug 2003 04:41

Erich wrote:Hate to disagree my friend but nothing could top the performance of the P-51D at medium or high altitude except for the Ta 152.
Here is what Luftwaffe Major (later General) Walter Krupinski (197 victories) said about the Bf 109K (but unfortunately I don't have the citation as it was a hastily scribbled note)...
Walter Krupinski wrote: The 109 was not bad at diving, but the [P-47] Thunderbolt was much better at diving. In climbing, if you compared it with the [P-51] Mustang and with the Spitfire, it depended on what height you started to climb. In the altitude between 5,000 and 10,000 meters, I think the 109 was much better at climbing than all the other types. The version of the 109 that I flew in 1944 and 1945 as a commander of a high-cover fighter group for our FW 190As [attacking bombers] was a very good one at 8,000 to 10,000 meters, as it had a special engine for high altitude, but it was very bad at low levels. Of course, it had a special tank for injections in the fuselage and so at a lower altitude your turning radius was not so good as that of a normal 109 and not even as good as that of an FW 190A. So we normally didn't attack Mustangs or Thunderbolts at low altitudes because it was bad for our type of aircraft.

The Mustangs were excellent in the altitude of 7,000 to 8,000 meters. That was also the altitude where they flew normally over the bombers, but above that nearly every piston engine had a lot of trouble. Only we in our 109s with our special engines were a little bit better than the Mustang engines at higher altitudes, so we'd try to attack them when we were higher than they were. But we had to protect our fighters who were attacking bombers, and normally the Mustangs were attacking us and that was very bad if you were not an experienced pilot. Even I was shot down once by a Mustang. I thought that I had my whole group of thirty aircraft behind me, and I didn't realize that they were all gone. The Mustang hit me and I bailed out at 8,000 or 9,000 meters.
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Erich
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Post by Erich » 08 Aug 2003 05:17

Hmmmmmm, Walter served in III./JG 26 which was basically wipped by P-51's and RAF spit's during late 44 through 45. The P-51's were always above the 109's and 190's. What can I say, his is one opinion I guess. In one of my interviews with ace Horst Petschler who flew a high altitude G-6/AS the idea to get above the P-51's at 30,000 feet in the spring of 44 and pounce on them as Walter described. It never happened, as Horst has told me. The mustangs flew at 32,000 feet and above and always had the upper hand. The fastest being the G-10 still could not perform on the elels of the P-51........

In any case it still is a surprise to me that the well known JG 7 with the 262 never had a protective escort gruppe in it's favour and many of the JV 44 pilots never saw evidence of their Würger staffel of 6 Dora's....

~E

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 08 Aug 2003 13:42

Erich wrote:In any case it still is a surprise to me that the well known JG 7 with the 262 never had a protective escort gruppe in it's favour and many of the JV 44 pilots never saw evidence of their Würger staffel of 6 Dora's....

~E
Nothing special in this! In feb. '45 Galland changed roles and composition of the best JGs: before they were equipped with only a kind of plane featuring only a mission profile. After these units were mixed and able to be leaded authonomously: any JG (..and JV 44 too!) were able to comply a lot of different mission profiles varying from training to recce. NATO applied such an evolution in late 1954: from Groups to Aerobrigades. Try to imagine who was the german general (...just freed from Soviets) who leaded this reform...

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Post by Erich » 08 Aug 2003 14:47

Friend, what the heck are you talking about ?

The JG's were designed for 1945 battle as defence gruppen against Allied and Soviet fighter and bomber a/c.

yes it is still a wonder to leading Luftwaffe experten why the top scoring Luftwaffe jet fighter unit did not have full protective escort screens during landing and taking off. It should of been readily apparent as JG 7 was derived from Kommando Nowotny that there sould of been two gruppen instead of one, this being flown at lower altitude over the field and one at a much higher altitude to take on the first P-51's or P-47's and not just an armada of fla pieces.

~E

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 11 Aug 2003 11:22

Galland reformed JGs in such way:
1) Nomad displacement. Handling and refuelling were not held in the main field, but casually displaced on satellites. Logistics were dominant, the goal was any unit displaced in a different gartenzaum day by day.
2) Authonomous defence. Any JG had to be self-defenced with its authonomous flak. By "mutual exchange" of small units with other JGs or Jabos, any defensive speciality had to be represented in any unit.
3) Leadership. The JG' s leader had to be the leader of the ground field operations and logistics. Only a chief for only a unit, this was the goal.
4) The JG leader was asolutely free to accomplish or not strategic operations with other JG: the only upper authority was Galland himself
Novotny's JG had been choosen for testing this new arrangement from Group to Aerobrigade. This reform was as much effective that NATO brutally copied it after W.Germany took part in it. The BRD high officer introducing this strategical evolution thru BRD attachè in Bruxelles was Hartmann. This facts had been well described in Galland' s autobiography. I am not a "Luftwaffe experten", but I have carefully read both Galland's autobiographies. The facts about NATOs Group arrangement and composition and history of Aerobrigades are available on AMI site.

P.S.
Someone asked why "Dora" was preferred as "door-guard" role instead of Bf109K. The reason was the landing gear: after a sudden strike of Allied intruders the gartenzaum was devasted. Holes, fires and the remains of the shot-downed intruders plus a lot of broken pieces and shrapnels were laying on the main strip. Any attempt to land in such a chaos with the short-spaced landing gear of Gustavs and Karls was extremely dangerous. But Dora was faster than those just having a wider gear. For this reason the only 250 Dora delivered were largely preferred for such a defensive role. This note is mine, not Galland's.

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Post by Erich » 12 Aug 2003 17:36

your posting still does not make sense to me.

As to Dora protective staffels. Understand that these piston engine units were not flying even on the same airstrip as the Me 262's so they did not have problems with pot holes, shrapnel or any type of debris. III./Jg 54 protecting Kommando Nowotny was simply overwhelmed by the numerical superiority of the US P-51 fighter escorts and the Dora-9 pilots did not even have a chance, even the aces....

~E

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