why using Fw190D to escort taking off and landing?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
gabriel pagliarani
Member
Posts: 1583
Joined: 01 Aug 2002 03:11
Location: ITALY

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 13 Aug 2003 15:18

Erich wrote:your posting still does not make sense to me.

As to Dora protective staffels. Understand that these piston engine units were not flying even on the same airstrip as the Me 262's so they did not have problems with pot holes, shrapnel or any type of debris. III./Jg 54 protecting Kommando Nowotny was simply overwhelmed by the numerical superiority of the US P-51 fighter escorts and the Dora-9 pilots did not even have a chance, even the aces....

~E
Now the landing strips of Doras were never attacked for Erich... :lol: How do you may think a so incredible evenience? The first thing Allieds did was dropping a bomb at the top of Dora's strip, another in the middle and the last at the end of the strip. Dora was choosen because able to run on grass without capsizing....Pierre Clostermann lost half squadron while attacking Doras' field the day Nowotny died. "Fight for mice" was a very complex and dangerous operation, not a simple "rhubarb".
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don't understand why do you emphashys the thoughts of simple soldiers (80-90 years old) avoiding 100% the orders of their General. As example only, (metaphore) a soldier in a fox-hole has a very limited consciourness of all the battlefield. The only thing to watch is the sky thru the hole: in the while his General watch a map and with a finger touch the fox-hole of the poor soldier. The General knows if the life of the soldier has to be continued or not, the soldier in the fox hole knows only the weather thru the hole: rainy or sunny. For pilots is the same thing: if you want REALLY know the strategy ask to Generals, not to soldiers. But if you really want to know effects of strategy ask soldiers.

User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 23:28
Location: OR

Post by Erich » 13 Aug 2003 16:41

Gabriel, let's forget the matieral on the Generals for a moment and focus on this story you mention about Pierre Closterman and the III./JG 54 Dora's. From what reference are you quoting from ? His book ?

E

User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 23:28
Location: OR

Post by Erich » 13 Aug 2003 17:08

I'll make a little comment and then you can respond.

Lt. Prager of 9./JG 54 was the only Luftwaffe pilot to score a victory on 8 November 1944 from a Dora staffel. This was a P-47. The 9th and 12./JG 54 were up in mass on this date and were called away from their protective escort duties for 4 Me 262's during the long day, Walter Nowotny being one pilot/Me 262. The Dora staffeln were needed to combat low altitude fighter bombers.

Lt Schall flying white 7 Me 262 claimed 3 P-51's but only 1 can be confirmed. Since the Kommando was having engine troubles only 2 jets took off in the morning and then another two later in the day, this being Nowotny himself. there is no mention of a ground strafing by any fighter/fighter-bomber units at Achmer or Hespe in my III./Jg 54 accounts. More searching......

~E

gabriel pagliarani
Member
Posts: 1583
Joined: 01 Aug 2002 03:11
Location: ITALY

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 14 Aug 2003 13:42

Exactly Erich,
I matched his book and Galland's memories. Flak shot down 11 Tempest of the entire Clostermann Sqdn. that bloody day. It happened in less than 3 minutes, if I well remember. The losses suffered by Allieds in the attempt to stop Schwalbes and their Dora escorts were enormous. Clostermann extimated a ratio Allied\Axis 7:1 in 1945. But the real Allied numerical superiority raised 80:1 in February 1945 and consequently their losses were less than 10% which was the break-even (or threshold) point over wich Karl Spaatz was ready to change tactics and strategy...As paradox if Me 262s had to shot down a little more enemies, surely B-29s had to be displaced in Europe and A-bomb too. In my opinion Dora's pilots accomplished their task heroically: they had no chance in overwhelming Allied 1st line fast intruders, as you said, but they effectively defended the Me262s taking off and climbing paths and only very few of them were shot-downed. Nowotny's death was a real casualty, and Galland's extreme defensive strategy worked in an excellent manner.

User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 23:28
Location: OR

Post by Erich » 14 Aug 2003 19:47

Gabriel what was Pierre's Tempest squadron again ? the 4??th or something like that ? I want to dig a bit more as I do not own the Clostermann book.
As I shared only one P-47 was downed by the brightly coloured Würger staffel covering JV 44's Me 262's. But again they did not lose a single a/c to enemy action, the Doras that is....

~E

gabriel pagliarani
Member
Posts: 1583
Joined: 01 Aug 2002 03:11
Location: ITALY

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 16 Aug 2003 14:38

:oops: ..I have read both Pierre Clostermann's books more than 20 years ago, sincerely I don' t remember the Sqdn. Nos. But I remember perfectly the white "Alsace Lorraine" Cross on both sides of the Napier engine of his powerful Tempest V. The day he lost half Sqdn. he didn't score, as I could remember. Feel patience, I am too old.
Try with this site:

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/closterm.htm

......On 4 March 1945 he joined No 274 Squadron and the Hawker Tempest. His first Tempest score was a Bf 109 on his second day during a "cannon test".
In the middle of March 1945 he was posted as a Flight commander to No 56 Squadron. With this unit he destroyed a Bf109 in the air. On 8 April he was transferred to No 3 Squadron as "A" Flight commander where he on 20 April scored two Fw 190D-9s'.
Clostermann's final score in Tempest is at least 12 destroyed, 6 shared and 2 probables . He was awarded the DSO and DFC and Bar in addition to French, Belgian and American decorations.

Date of Claim Type Claimed Aircraft Flown Aircraft Serial No. Location of Claim Unit Note
5 March 1945 Bf 109 Tempest JJ-W (EJ893) Nordhorn 274 Sqn See note no.1
14 March 1945 Bf 109 Tempest Hannover 274 Sqn See note no.2
14 March 1945 Bf 109 Tempest Hannover 274 Sqn See note no.5
28 March 1945 Fi156 Tempest South of Munster 274 Sqn See note no.4
28 March 1945 1/2 Ju88 Tempest Rheine Opstein 274 Sqn See note no.1
2 April 1945 Fw 190D-9 Tempest US-G (NV968) Aldhorn airfield 56 Sqn See note no.1
5 April 1945 Ju88 Tempest Wunstorf 56 Sqn See note no.1
5 April 1945 1/2 Bf109 Tempest Dummer Lake 56 Sqn See note no.1
5 April 1945 1/2 Bf109 Tempest Dummer Lake 56 Sqn See note no.1
20 April 1945 2 Fw 190D-9 Tempest JF-E (NV994) Dummer Lake 3 Sqn See note no.1
20 April 1945 1/2 Ju290 Tempest Skagerac 3 Sqn See note no.2
3 May 1945 Fw 190D-9 Tempest Kiel 3 Sqn See note no.1
3 May 1945 Ju252 Tempest Grossembrode 3 Sqn See note no.1
3 May 1945 2 Do24 Tempest Fehmarn detroit 3 Sqn See note no.1
3 May 1945 1/2 Bf109 Tempest Grossembrode 3 Sqn See note no.3
3 May 1945 1/2 Bf109 Tempest Grossembrode 3 Sqn See note no.3

Note 1:
Confirmed victories in Public Offical Record archives.
Note 2:
Recorded on RAF combat report, and admited as confirmed victories with official citation by French Air Force.
Note 3:
Shared with his 3 Sqn australian wingman Bay Adams.
Note 4:
Fi 156 admited by French Air Force as an air victory. In fact Clostermann´s report indicated that his attack against the Fi156 just taking off obliged the german pilot to make an emergency landing. After a first pass over the enemy aircraft, while the air crew jumped out of the "Storch", Clostermann finally destroyed this objective on another attack on the ground.
Note 5:
Only recorded in personal logbook. Classifed as probable by French Air Force.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
PS
Another probable specific performance of Dora making it eligible in the role of "hound-dog" or "Angel of the Schwalbes" and probably well considered by OKL was the very short warm-up time of Dora's liquid cooled 12 cyls. engine respect with BMW air-cooled radial engine of FW-190 A. I have read that the recommended warm-up lead time of those engine in winter time was more than 10 minutes at idle throttle. An handycap for fast climbing interceptors...so wide landing gear + low warm-up lead time + excellent aerobatics let OKL choose Doras to keep clean the Me 262s landing paths. No role was more important than this one.

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”