Operational Fw 187's?

[daveh]

I have read that the Fw 187 were used in a Focke Wulf factory defence squadron and were unofficially evaluated by service pilots in Norway.

Are any more details known? Any pilots reports comparing it with the Bf 110... supposedly the Fw 187 was preferred, details? Who used it? How did a front line unit get to use an "unapproved" aircraft?

Did the Fw 187 achieve any successes?

[subskipper]

I have read that the Fw 187 were used in a Focke Wulf factory defence squadron and were unofficially evaluated by service pilots in Norway.

Are any more details known? Any pilots reports comparing it with the Bf 110... supposedly the Fw 187 was preferred, details? Who used it? How did a front line unit get to use an "unapproved" aircraft?

Did the Fw 187 achieve any successes?

Perhaps this book can be of interest to you: http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/l ... 18713.html


~Henric Edwards

[daveh]

I have always liked the look of the Fw 187 but hadn't come across your reference before, it's not listed on the standard British books in print. Many thanks just what I wanted

[subskipper]

I have always liked the look of the Fw 187 but hadn't come across your reference before, it's not listed on the standard British books in print. Many thanks just what I wanted

I've always thought that the Falke looks somewhat like a slimmer version of the Beaufighter. The large engines protruding beyond the nose etc. A beautiful aircraft in any case.



~Henric Edwards

[fdewaele]

Apparantly the FW187 was just as good as the Bf110, perhaps even a little better. It's main problem was political however. It was a political decision to chose the Bf110. Later on in the war, it was briefly considered as a nightfighter but it couldn't be outfitted witha radar so the project was dropped.

One could pose oneself the question how different would the outcome of the Battle of Britain have been if a jagdgeschwader equipped with FW187 took part in the battle...

[Tim Smith]

Fw 187 would have been a better twin-engined single-seat day fighter (like the P-38) than the Bf110 could ever have been. Fw187 was faster than Bf109 on same engine.

Bf110 made a better 2 or 3 seat night fighter than the Fw187 could have been, the Fw187 fuselage was too small to hold the radar equipment and operator.

[subskipper]

Apparantly the FW187 was just as good as the Bf110, perhaps even a little better. It's main problem was political however. It was a political decision to chose the Bf110.

This begs the question; on what grounds did they refuse the FW-187? Did Göring hold some grudge against Focke Wulf? Since so many references place it ahead of the Bf-110, why didn't they go with Falke instead?



~Henric Edwards

[Erich]

The unit was used in a small scale with NJG 100 on the Ost front. Th idea to have a slower a/c to intercept the night witches and other bi-planes on harrassment duties.

it was a flop

~E

[fdewaele]

This begs the question; on what grounds did they refuse the FW-187? Did Göring hold some grudge against Focke Wulf? Since so many references place it ahead of the Bf-110, why didn't they go with Falke instead?

Apparantly, the Falke was designed as a fast interceptor (one pilot) but the requirement of the RLM called for a destroyer. When they began to adapt the plane to these requirements (second crewman) its performance began to falter. Also a "bad point" was the lack of a rear machine gun which was demanded by the RLM. Because of this the RLM decided to stick with the Bf110.

In all, they threw away a very good plane because it didn't match the stiff requirements of the RLM.

A mistake because later in the war one sees the allies use to a great effect planes of a much similar princip like the Beaufighter and the Lightening. I think the Falke due to its speed and maneuverability could have turned the tide in the BoB. (It's climb and dive rates exceeded even those of the Bf109 and it was 50 mph faster than the Bf109B)

[varjag]

The Luftwaffe requirement that led to the Me 110 was for a 'strategic fighter' with long range and the design began in 1934. The Fw 187 Falke was begun in 1936 so I think it is incorrect to think they were competitors. It's performance was also not that great and it seems that the RLM assessment of the Fw 187 was correct - there was little it could do that the Me 110 could not do better. Like with all these exotic 'also-rans' imagination often gets the better of common sense and they are ascribed qualities that they never had. Apart from, I think six, prototypes they only built three Fw 187A-0 preproduction aircraft. It is those three, painted in full Luftwaffe regalia that centres around the stories about the Focke-Wulf, Bremen plant's 'local defence' and the 'Norway' excursion on 'loan' to Luftwaffe pilots.....I do not believe the first and have serious doubts about the second. All stems from beaut colour pictures in the German propaganda-pictorial SIGNAL about 1941 or 42 with cryptic texts to make readers believe what Goebbels wanted them to believe. SIGNAL also marketed the fables about the He 113 fighter and Bv 141 fighter-bomber, which still are believed in some circles.

[daveh]

It seems that there are a number of stories circulating about the lesser known German aircraft that are based on war time intelligence and early post war research. These tales have become embodied into the main stream literature see eg posts on the Ju290 and Manchuria, Hs 129 in Normandy.

Does anyone know of any attempts akin to those of T Jentz on German AFV to look at original records to determine what if any truth there is behind such stories?

[varjag]

Daveh - I think you can discount 'wartime intelligence' - they read the German press too, were taken in by the same B/S as innumerable postwar students - and hedged their bets accordingly.

[Erich]

apologies gents ! I was speaking of the Fw 189. I find no reference to any Fw 187 taking part in factory defence just the same for the propaganda He 100's and their line-up shots....

~E

[Cantankerous]

This begs the question; on what grounds did they refuse the FW-187? Did Göring hold some grudge against Focke Wulf? Since so many references place it ahead of the Bf-110, why didn't they go with Falke instead?

Apparantly, the Falke was designed as a fast interceptor (one pilot) but the requirement of the RLM called for a destroyer. When they began to adapt the plane to these requirements (second crewman) its performance began to falter. Also a "bad point" was the lack of a rear machine gun which was demanded by the RLM. Because of this the RLM decided to stick with the Bf110.

In all, they threw away a very good plane because it didn't match the stiff requirements of the RLM.

A mistake because later in the war one sees the allies use to a great effect planes of a much similar princip like the Beaufighter and the Lightening. I think the Falke due to its speed and maneuverability could have turned the tide in the BoB. (It's climb and dive rates exceeded even those of the Bf109 and it was 50 mph faster than the Bf109B)

The Focke-Wulf Fw 187 was an unsolicited submission to the RLM, with the intent to serve as a long-range fighter combining the strengths of the Bf 109 with the strengths of the Bf 110. It is no wonder that the Bf 110 fared poorly against RAF fighters during the Battle of Britain and ended up being more useful as a bomber-destroyer as originally envisioned when first designed by Willy Messerschmitt in the 1930s. The Focke-Wulf Fw 57 was the true Focke-Wulf competitor to the Bf 110 that won the Flugzeugzerstörer contest, not the Fw 187. In his book Junkers Ju 88 Volume 1: From Schnellbomber to Multi-Mission Warplane, William Medcalf suggests that the little-known Junkers Ju 85 (not to be confused with a late 1930s Junkers strategic bomber design with the same designation that lost out to the Heinkel He 177) may have intended to be used in some of the same roles as the Bf 110, but it's unclear if the Ju 85 was designed for the same requirement as the Bf 110 or was an unsolicited design submission.