Foo-Fighters Were German: The Evidence
Dear Mr Creak
The original "El Mercurio" newspaper report, upon which this current correspondence is based, and to which you refer, uses the word "invasion". It is easy to see that "bombing" fits your ideas, and if Admiral Byrd had said "bombing" instead of "invasion" the nature of the argument would be different. But whereas "bombing" is not a word used in the report, "invasion" is.
Furthermore, it seems obvious that, in its ongoing deliberations, the Pentagon would at some time or another have given thought to the various directions from which an aerial attack on the United States might come. The idea that a potential enemy might fly in from either pole would undoubtedly have entered into this or that war game. It was not a matter which should have been of any concern to Admiral Byrd in his role as the leader of an Antarctic exploration UNLESS he saw something physically present in Antarctica which alarmed him. This is in essence the reason why a mystery is read into the report.
I do not subscribe to the "Hollow Earth" theory as it is generally understood. You appear to be knowledgeable in this area and in the matter of the documents, accepted and argued by academic historians, regarding the discoveries of the earliest polar research and I would be very pleased to receive your opinion on the subject as I am sure it will offer food for thought, particularly as historians are divided on the question.
The original "El Mercurio" newspaper report, upon which this current correspondence is based, and to which you refer, uses the word "invasion". It is easy to see that "bombing" fits your ideas, and if Admiral Byrd had said "bombing" instead of "invasion" the nature of the argument would be different. But whereas "bombing" is not a word used in the report, "invasion" is.
Furthermore, it seems obvious that, in its ongoing deliberations, the Pentagon would at some time or another have given thought to the various directions from which an aerial attack on the United States might come. The idea that a potential enemy might fly in from either pole would undoubtedly have entered into this or that war game. It was not a matter which should have been of any concern to Admiral Byrd in his role as the leader of an Antarctic exploration UNLESS he saw something physically present in Antarctica which alarmed him. This is in essence the reason why a mystery is read into the report.
I do not subscribe to the "Hollow Earth" theory as it is generally understood. You appear to be knowledgeable in this area and in the matter of the documents, accepted and argued by academic historians, regarding the discoveries of the earliest polar research and I would be very pleased to receive your opinion on the subject as I am sure it will offer food for thought, particularly as historians are divided on the question.
LWD
Many thanks for your contribution. This discussion revolves around the use of the word "invasion" attributed to Admiral Byrd in the "El Mercurio" report. The inference derived from this word is that an airborne invasion overflying the South Pole was necessary, requiring a vast aerial armada - tens of thousands of giant troop carriers and tanker aircraft. Mr Creak would obviously have to agree with this proposal, but he simply avoids it all by substituting the word "bombing" for "invasion" in the original newspaper report.
What you say regarding bombing attacks is true, but as I pointed out in the foregoing reply to Mr Creak, the word at dispute is "invasion", and there was no mistake about this word for it is was used in subsequent Press interviews.
The matter of National Defence, and the whole question of the possibility of the United States being attacked by bombers overflying the South Pole, or from anywhere else for that matter, was for the Pentagon, and undoubtedly the idea had crossed their minds at some time or another during the preceding half century. If Admiral Byrd thought he had something interesting to communicate about aerial strategy, he could have sent a secret signal to the US Navy Chief and then got on with the task in hand. To create the furore which he did, to speak out of turn to the Press, all this must have had to do with something physical which he saw at the South Pole and which caused him the gravest alarm.
Many thanks for your contribution. This discussion revolves around the use of the word "invasion" attributed to Admiral Byrd in the "El Mercurio" report. The inference derived from this word is that an airborne invasion overflying the South Pole was necessary, requiring a vast aerial armada - tens of thousands of giant troop carriers and tanker aircraft. Mr Creak would obviously have to agree with this proposal, but he simply avoids it all by substituting the word "bombing" for "invasion" in the original newspaper report.
What you say regarding bombing attacks is true, but as I pointed out in the foregoing reply to Mr Creak, the word at dispute is "invasion", and there was no mistake about this word for it is was used in subsequent Press interviews.
The matter of National Defence, and the whole question of the possibility of the United States being attacked by bombers overflying the South Pole, or from anywhere else for that matter, was for the Pentagon, and undoubtedly the idea had crossed their minds at some time or another during the preceding half century. If Admiral Byrd thought he had something interesting to communicate about aerial strategy, he could have sent a secret signal to the US Navy Chief and then got on with the task in hand. To create the furore which he did, to speak out of turn to the Press, all this must have had to do with something physical which he saw at the South Pole and which caused him the gravest alarm.
Well that's the point of contention... I can tell you from personal experience that newspaper reports do not always report accurately (i.e. word for word), and there's a possiblity that the translation from Byrd's report, to Spanish and then back again may have lost some of the original meaning. English = bombing raid. Spanish = incursión aérea del bombardeo. If someone had left it at "raid" as opposed to the more specific "bombing raid" then there's plenty of room for confusion.But whereas "bombing" is not a word used in the report, "invasion" is.
And if I may quote from your reply to LWD, since the point is phrased better in that post
Possibly so. But the USSR had little to no capability for long-range bombing (especially over the pole missions) in that preceding 50 years. The acquisition of the three B-29s that diverted to the USSR was the foundation for a long series of inceasingly capable aircraft, starting with the Tu-4, culminating in the Tu-95/20 Bear. A series of aircraft that ended up costing the USA roughly a billion dollars in counter-measures (radar systems looking for aircraft coming over poles, and a continental defence network). This was documented fairly comprehensively in Air International a couple of decades ago in a series called "The Billion Dollar Bomber". This series of Russian aircraft overall probably cost the USA more than it did the USSR.undoubtedly the idea had crossed their minds at some time or another during the preceding half century.
Here's a quote from Wiki. Look at the dates:
A few months difference between the newspaper report/ Byrd's statement and the acknowledged first flight. Do you imagine that the USA was not aware of that aircraft until it made the flight?The resulting bomber was the Tu-4, which first flew on 19 May, 1947
from http://aeroweb.lucia.it/rap/RAFAQ/Tu-4.html. Apparently that report was initially disbelieved until the Soviet purchase of tyres specific to B-29 some time after that report. November '46 for the report, Soviet purchase of specific-use items, intelligence lag... I submit that the USA became cognisant of the reality of the Tu-4 programme BEFORE the first flight, and Byrd's comments addressed that very real and VERY new threat.World War 2 had been over only for a little over a year when an article appeared in the November 11, 1946 issue of the Berlin newspaper Der Kurier claiming that the Soviet Union was manufacturing a bolt-for-bolt copy of the B-29 in a series of factories located in the Urals.
Indeed invading country x's airspace is a common term. So lacking the mention of landing troops I'll take the more reasonable explanation. As for Byrds plolar exploration these were the times when the Van Allen bults, jet-stream and other goephysical phenomina were being discovered and their ramifications being investigated. some of these could theoretically precluded or aided transpolar assaults. Byrd could also have been using his prominace at the time to push for some pet projects or theories of his own.Mr.Creak wrote:Well that's the point of contention... I can tell you from personal experience that newspaper reports do not always report accurately (i.e. word for word), and there's a possiblity that the translation from Byrd's report, to Spanish and then back again may have lost some of the original meaning. English = bombing raid. Spanish = incursión aérea del bombardeo. If someone had left it at "raid" as opposed to the more specific "bombing raid" then there's plenty of room for confusion.But whereas "bombing" is not a word used in the report, "invasion" is.
....
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Report of Operation Highjump, excerpt:
"The short period available for planning and preparation required strenuous work on the part of all. Many of the ships were in an inactive status and all were below peace time complements. All aircraft required winterization and some alterations. Little time was available for the training and indoctrination of the hastily assembled crews of the ships and aircraft. Much specialized equipment had to be assembled and modified for the special conditions to be encountered, especially that for the base at Little America. The departure date of 2 December 1946 could not have been met except for the splendid cooperation of the various Bureaus and agencies of the Navy Department and of numerous commands afloat and ashore."
For information about T. Townsend Brown, see the article: How I Control Gravitation, published in Science and Invention, August 1929. The ionic breeze effect is not relevant as even in 1929, the elements of what Brown called a gravitator were suspended in oil to show that ionic wind was not the source of the effect. This publication was, of course, available to anyone interested.
It should be pointed out that the United States had troops in Greenland and Iceland during the Second World War. A long trip to the Antarctic would not have made sense. That electrogravitic principles were known in 1929 and information about an electric aircraft proposed by Tesla also appeared prior to the war lends credence to the idea that this work was taken further. To understand the nature of the secrecy surrounding these vehicles, one needs to understand the concept of consumption and the moneys to be made from it. A wingless aircraft that carried a non-chemical power supply would have been injurious to the financial interests of the time, including gobal chemical concerns. The fourth largest company in the world in 1932 was the German IG Farben.
Those investigating "foo fighters" should know that a researcher discovered the term used during the war to identify these objects, it is "phoo bombs." A report has been located indicating evidence of this.
HSr
"The short period available for planning and preparation required strenuous work on the part of all. Many of the ships were in an inactive status and all were below peace time complements. All aircraft required winterization and some alterations. Little time was available for the training and indoctrination of the hastily assembled crews of the ships and aircraft. Much specialized equipment had to be assembled and modified for the special conditions to be encountered, especially that for the base at Little America. The departure date of 2 December 1946 could not have been met except for the splendid cooperation of the various Bureaus and agencies of the Navy Department and of numerous commands afloat and ashore."
For information about T. Townsend Brown, see the article: How I Control Gravitation, published in Science and Invention, August 1929. The ionic breeze effect is not relevant as even in 1929, the elements of what Brown called a gravitator were suspended in oil to show that ionic wind was not the source of the effect. This publication was, of course, available to anyone interested.
It should be pointed out that the United States had troops in Greenland and Iceland during the Second World War. A long trip to the Antarctic would not have made sense. That electrogravitic principles were known in 1929 and information about an electric aircraft proposed by Tesla also appeared prior to the war lends credence to the idea that this work was taken further. To understand the nature of the secrecy surrounding these vehicles, one needs to understand the concept of consumption and the moneys to be made from it. A wingless aircraft that carried a non-chemical power supply would have been injurious to the financial interests of the time, including gobal chemical concerns. The fourth largest company in the world in 1932 was the German IG Farben.
Those investigating "foo fighters" should know that a researcher discovered the term used during the war to identify these objects, it is "phoo bombs." A report has been located indicating evidence of this.
HSr
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Where to begin in such a controversial topic that has been debated for over 5 decades?
Well, the first German discs were occult, envisioned by the Vril Gesellschaft and financed by the Thule Gesellschaft (originator of the Nazi OParty and Hakenkreuz, not swastika, symbol which is based on the Black Sun/Schwarz Sonne).
The first disc was the Jenseitsflugmaschine or JFM built in 1922 in Munich. It was tested for 2 years with assistance from Winfried Otto Schumann whoi m anaged to develop some form of levitator unit from it; it was however, a dangerous machine meant for interdimensional channeled spaceflight and was hurriedly dismantled in 1924, then shipped to Messerschmitt Augsburg before being moved during the war up to Peenemunde for reassembly. Fate unknown.
Then, with Hitler in power by 1933 the occult Societies got support from the Nazi Party and continued their metaphysical science with SS assistance in two locations- Hauneburg in NW Germany for testing of the Haunebu series under Thule and Arado-Brandenberg under Vril. The Haunebu was known as the H-Gerat and briefly incorporated into the RFZ (Rundflugzeug/Round Aircraft) series Vril was pioneering. Test craft were built in 1934-1941 with RFZ series 1-7.
By 1939 the Haunebu craft had perfected a Thule antrieb sometimes identified as the Tachonator 7a which was a EMG-type engine which incorporated Hans Colers gravitic battery (Magnetstromapparat) turned into a power converter connected to Van de Graaf band generators, two superconducting rings and a fixed ferrite ring. The craft was controlled by the KT-P2 celestial guidance unit manufactured by Siemens and AEG. In addition to creating strong rotating EM fields, the craft also held a large spherical tank of red mercury that was pressurized and heated rotating at over 70,000 rpm which created an anti-gravity effect and reduced mass by 80%. The machines were huge and required special armored hulls to protect the crews which wore Draeger pressure/space suits.
Meanwhile Vril was concentrating on channeled spaceflight and proceeded with their own series of Vril discs 1-9 plus several disc projects. The majority of these craft utilized Schumann's levitators and another type antrieb of which little is known. Several attempts with the Vril 1 and 7 Geist (Spirit) were attempted but all reportedly ended in disaster. By the end of the was the SS Technical Branc E-IV/V were busy building two large Andromeda-Gerat cylindrical motherships- one of which was captured by the US Army in the spring of 1945 (Read "Fascinationg Relics of the Third Reich by R. Lee).
Independent of the occult disc types were a range of SS-sponsored efforts. Henri Coanda was captured in Paris in 1940 and forced to work on a Lenticular Flugscheibe that was wind tunnel tested only. It required 12 Jumo 004s and used Coanda's own famous "Effect" for flight. Viktor Schauberger refused to co-operate with the Nazis on vortex technology development so he was imprisoned at Mauthausen and given 30 engineers plus help from the Kertl Compano to develop a vortex engine that was to power an odd SS bio-submarine project that became named the "Forelle" (Trout). However, the early test of the Schauberger Repulsin motors was provided to Heinkel for a/c research- they declined. However, one of their employees, Rudolf Schriever took the disc idea and designed the first of the disc-fans- Flugkreisels (Flight Gyros). His design was taken by the SS and built by either 1942 or 43. It was powered by 5 kerosene engines with 3 on the disc rim and two on the disc body. It was highly unstable, so 3 prominent engineers were brought in to redesign it: Richard Miethe, Klaus Habermohl, and Guiseppe Belluzzo from the Riva Del Garda facility. Habermohl proposed a disc driven by a Walterrohr (Walter rocket pipe) and was rejected. Belluzzo's designs are not known but at Riva Del Garda he was busy trying to perfect a circular flying bomb called the "Turbo Proietti" (possibly the mistaken Schildkrote) and an Italian disc called the "Piatra Di Volo" sanctioned by Mussolini himself (this design was discovered postwar in a scientist's apt).
With BMW originally called to develop the engines for the original Flugkreisel the company started indigenous development of its own disc-fan series called Flugelrad (Winged Wheel) that were tested at Prag-Kbley Aerodrome. None were flight worthy, usually tethered with a few brief hops.
Meanwhile, AEG had started development back in 1941 of spherical ion-plasma balls called Kugelwaffen as part of their general plasma research. This information was shared with the Japanese and tests with the spheres proved practical enough to attempt to use them as psychological weapons against the USAAF and RAF bombers as Germany came under attack. But the SS also had WNF working on an ovoid disc with flattened turbojet called the Feuerball (Fireball... aka Foo Fighter/Kraut Meteor). These craft were fitted with plume sensors and an electrostatic discharge weapon developed at Messerschmitt-Oberammergau. The burning of various chemicals around the ring of the disc produced an electrostatic field capable of knocking out Allied radars and engines once the craft had approached to within a few 100 meters. Several hundred encounters with this weapon occured in the ETO from late 1944- April 1945. They stopped with the collapse of the Reich but with technology transfer via U-boat they resumed in the PTO from July 1945 forward. These craft were even acknowledged in several newsapers and classified as "Phoo Bombs" by the USAAF.
Other independent patents and personal projects also proceeded. Arthur Sack was supported by Udet to develop a circualr a/c at Brandis. It was underpowered and had misplaced gear; hence, it could hop but not fly. Heinrich Focke had a patent for another circular a/c called the Schnellflugzeug Rochen (Aquatic Ray/Skate) that would have been powered by a turboshaft engine. This became known as the Fw VTOL but Fw was too busy building Fw-190s. Postwar, however, his design was built in scale model form and tested at Bremen- a success, but not adopted by anyone. Andrea Epp had a patent for a Helioplane which was redesigned in 1943 as the Omega Diskus powered by two ramjet rotors and several lift fans. Only 1/10th scale models were built before the end of the war but postwar Epp approached the Soviets and built a further redesign as the Pirna Disc which flew in 1950 in Pirna, East Germany.
These are just a handful of more than 30 concrete German disc programs in various stages of progress from 1922-1945.
Well, the first German discs were occult, envisioned by the Vril Gesellschaft and financed by the Thule Gesellschaft (originator of the Nazi OParty and Hakenkreuz, not swastika, symbol which is based on the Black Sun/Schwarz Sonne).
The first disc was the Jenseitsflugmaschine or JFM built in 1922 in Munich. It was tested for 2 years with assistance from Winfried Otto Schumann whoi m anaged to develop some form of levitator unit from it; it was however, a dangerous machine meant for interdimensional channeled spaceflight and was hurriedly dismantled in 1924, then shipped to Messerschmitt Augsburg before being moved during the war up to Peenemunde for reassembly. Fate unknown.
Then, with Hitler in power by 1933 the occult Societies got support from the Nazi Party and continued their metaphysical science with SS assistance in two locations- Hauneburg in NW Germany for testing of the Haunebu series under Thule and Arado-Brandenberg under Vril. The Haunebu was known as the H-Gerat and briefly incorporated into the RFZ (Rundflugzeug/Round Aircraft) series Vril was pioneering. Test craft were built in 1934-1941 with RFZ series 1-7.
By 1939 the Haunebu craft had perfected a Thule antrieb sometimes identified as the Tachonator 7a which was a EMG-type engine which incorporated Hans Colers gravitic battery (Magnetstromapparat) turned into a power converter connected to Van de Graaf band generators, two superconducting rings and a fixed ferrite ring. The craft was controlled by the KT-P2 celestial guidance unit manufactured by Siemens and AEG. In addition to creating strong rotating EM fields, the craft also held a large spherical tank of red mercury that was pressurized and heated rotating at over 70,000 rpm which created an anti-gravity effect and reduced mass by 80%. The machines were huge and required special armored hulls to protect the crews which wore Draeger pressure/space suits.
Meanwhile Vril was concentrating on channeled spaceflight and proceeded with their own series of Vril discs 1-9 plus several disc projects. The majority of these craft utilized Schumann's levitators and another type antrieb of which little is known. Several attempts with the Vril 1 and 7 Geist (Spirit) were attempted but all reportedly ended in disaster. By the end of the was the SS Technical Branc E-IV/V were busy building two large Andromeda-Gerat cylindrical motherships- one of which was captured by the US Army in the spring of 1945 (Read "Fascinationg Relics of the Third Reich by R. Lee).
Independent of the occult disc types were a range of SS-sponsored efforts. Henri Coanda was captured in Paris in 1940 and forced to work on a Lenticular Flugscheibe that was wind tunnel tested only. It required 12 Jumo 004s and used Coanda's own famous "Effect" for flight. Viktor Schauberger refused to co-operate with the Nazis on vortex technology development so he was imprisoned at Mauthausen and given 30 engineers plus help from the Kertl Compano to develop a vortex engine that was to power an odd SS bio-submarine project that became named the "Forelle" (Trout). However, the early test of the Schauberger Repulsin motors was provided to Heinkel for a/c research- they declined. However, one of their employees, Rudolf Schriever took the disc idea and designed the first of the disc-fans- Flugkreisels (Flight Gyros). His design was taken by the SS and built by either 1942 or 43. It was powered by 5 kerosene engines with 3 on the disc rim and two on the disc body. It was highly unstable, so 3 prominent engineers were brought in to redesign it: Richard Miethe, Klaus Habermohl, and Guiseppe Belluzzo from the Riva Del Garda facility. Habermohl proposed a disc driven by a Walterrohr (Walter rocket pipe) and was rejected. Belluzzo's designs are not known but at Riva Del Garda he was busy trying to perfect a circular flying bomb called the "Turbo Proietti" (possibly the mistaken Schildkrote) and an Italian disc called the "Piatra Di Volo" sanctioned by Mussolini himself (this design was discovered postwar in a scientist's apt).
With BMW originally called to develop the engines for the original Flugkreisel the company started indigenous development of its own disc-fan series called Flugelrad (Winged Wheel) that were tested at Prag-Kbley Aerodrome. None were flight worthy, usually tethered with a few brief hops.
Meanwhile, AEG had started development back in 1941 of spherical ion-plasma balls called Kugelwaffen as part of their general plasma research. This information was shared with the Japanese and tests with the spheres proved practical enough to attempt to use them as psychological weapons against the USAAF and RAF bombers as Germany came under attack. But the SS also had WNF working on an ovoid disc with flattened turbojet called the Feuerball (Fireball... aka Foo Fighter/Kraut Meteor). These craft were fitted with plume sensors and an electrostatic discharge weapon developed at Messerschmitt-Oberammergau. The burning of various chemicals around the ring of the disc produced an electrostatic field capable of knocking out Allied radars and engines once the craft had approached to within a few 100 meters. Several hundred encounters with this weapon occured in the ETO from late 1944- April 1945. They stopped with the collapse of the Reich but with technology transfer via U-boat they resumed in the PTO from July 1945 forward. These craft were even acknowledged in several newsapers and classified as "Phoo Bombs" by the USAAF.
Other independent patents and personal projects also proceeded. Arthur Sack was supported by Udet to develop a circualr a/c at Brandis. It was underpowered and had misplaced gear; hence, it could hop but not fly. Heinrich Focke had a patent for another circular a/c called the Schnellflugzeug Rochen (Aquatic Ray/Skate) that would have been powered by a turboshaft engine. This became known as the Fw VTOL but Fw was too busy building Fw-190s. Postwar, however, his design was built in scale model form and tested at Bremen- a success, but not adopted by anyone. Andrea Epp had a patent for a Helioplane which was redesigned in 1943 as the Omega Diskus powered by two ramjet rotors and several lift fans. Only 1/10th scale models were built before the end of the war but postwar Epp approached the Soviets and built a further redesign as the Pirna Disc which flew in 1950 in Pirna, East Germany.
These are just a handful of more than 30 concrete German disc programs in various stages of progress from 1922-1945.