Cutting other Planes with Prop?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
Post Reply
User avatar
Enigma
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 May 2004, 15:24
Location: California
Contact:

Cutting other Planes with Prop?

#1

Post by Enigma » 11 Jun 2004, 15:39

My friends and I are in a disagreement.

He believes that Russian pilots in their Yaks flew there planes to cut other planes(Like he-111s) and cut them with their props, and were able to fly hom e with 5-10% casualties... Is this true?

Wont the prop be-
Damaged
Not able to work
Struck so bad that it no long worked

And even if the prob worked would it not go so slow that he would be a perfect target for the luftwaffe?

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

#2

Post by Andy H » 11 Jun 2004, 15:53

I have read of several instances where pilots from many countries in acts of desperation used their plane propellers as a weapon, and so damaging the enemy plane that it either crashed or had to abandon its mission.

Yes the prop would so damaged that the plane would normally be abandoned and the pilot bail out.

In regards to the % figures quoted, I've not come across any such listings.

Andy H


varjag
Member
Posts: 4431
Joined: 01 May 2002, 02:44
Location: Australia

#3

Post by varjag » 12 Jun 2004, 02:20

I have been led to understand that Soviet fighter units were actually under orders, especially winter 1941-42, to use, when deemed neccessary, their props to chop into German bombers - and that on occasion they succeeded. But such tactics almost invariably led to the loss of the attacking fighter as well if not always it's pilot.

daveh
Member
Posts: 1439
Joined: 11 Feb 2003, 19:14
Location: uk

#4

Post by daveh » 12 Jun 2004, 12:35

from
http://uncleted.jinak.cz/taran.htm#taran

There were three types of Taran attacks:

Using the propeller against the rudder or elevators of the enemy aircraft.
This type was the most difficult to achieve, but also offered the pilot the best chance of survival.

Using the wing as a blade to slice into the enemy aircraft's wing or tail.
Some models of the Polikarpov I-16 were especially strengthened for this type of attack. This offered less chance of the attacking aircraft's survival, but was less dangerous than the outright ram to the pilot.

Outright ram (taranyy udar).
This was the most dangerous type of attack, but was the easiest for the pilot to perform.

There were between 200 and 500 taran attacks between the beginning of Barbarossa and the middle of 1943 (sources disagree and some exaggerate), at which point enough "modern" fighters were available that taran attacks were no longer warranted or sanctioned. Fourteen Soviet pilots were credited with making two taran attacks. One pilot, Aleksandr Hiobystov of the 147th IAP (fighter regiment) made three. Another pilot, Lt. Boris Kobzan of the 184th IAP, made four taran attacks.

http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/a ... taran.html gives a list of taran victories

In general such attacks were made either by outclassed aircraft eg I 153 and I 16 s or aircraft already damaged. Unless the Yak was damaged or perhaps out of ammo there would be no need to resort to taran attacks as the Yak fighters were certainly good enough to shoot down a He111.

As noted in other any such taran attack would result it some degree of damage to the attacking aircraft. I have not seen any figures for the survival rate of aircraft or aircrew in such circumstances. The first quote I posted points to the importance given to pilots surviving rather than aircraft. Deliberately ramming another aircraft would I suspect lead to a higher loss rate in aircraft than 10% but, as the pilot aimed to survive, the loss rate in pilots may well have been under 10%.

User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004, 16:19
Location: Finland

#5

Post by Topspeed » 17 Jun 2004, 16:42

Hi,

I have read that oberst Walter Dahl and Rammjägers squadron had the same tactics on Allied bombers..how succesful ? I have no idea...death comes quickly in 10 000 meters altitude if hanging from a chute.

User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 00:28
Location: OR

Sturm-ramm

#6

Post by Erich » 17 Jun 2004, 19:49

actually the last comments are a bit off topic as we are dealing with Soviet fighters ramming German a/c.

Walter Dahl had nothing to do with the so-called Ramm-jagern. It was Hajo Hermann during the Sonderkommando Elbe mission in April of 1945.

Rammjäger is not the correct word to use for the Sturmstaffeln/Sturmgruppen that had heavy Fw 190A-8's to close in with the US bombers. Walter Dahl was overall Kommandeur of the Gefechtsverband of I./JG 300, II.Sturm/JG 300 and IV.Sturm/JG 3 until his promotion of leading Kommadore of JG 300 during it's hectic 1944 days and finally ace Günther Rall in 1945.

The idea of the German form of ramming or rammjäger as it is eroniously called stemmed from Major Kornatski's Sturmstaffel 1 which during early 1944 thorugh spring of 44 developed the close-in techniques of rear attacks on US B-17's and B-24's. The staffel then was absorbed in May of 44 into IV.Sturm/JG 3 as it's 11th staffel. A document was to be sisgned by each one of the Sturm pilots promising that at least 1 bomber would fall by their guns even in the event as last resort-ramming-

It is funny but there is quite a bit of myth surrounding this document as nearly everyone of the Staffelkapitäns and Gruppen-kommandeur Wilhelm Moritz refused to force the pilots of JG 3 sturm to sign the piece of paper..........

v/r

Erich ~

gabriel pagliarani
Member
Posts: 1583
Joined: 01 Aug 2002, 04:11
Location: ITALY

#7

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 18 Jun 2004, 08:18

100%propaganda both sides.Italians who did "tarany udar" died in action like the gold medal Ferruccio Serafini (51° stormo, 30 july '43, Sardinia)Uneffective suicidal tactics.

Post Reply

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”