Cutting other Planes with Prop?
Cutting other Planes with Prop?
My friends and I are in a disagreement.
He believes that Russian pilots in their Yaks flew there planes to cut other planes(Like he-111s) and cut them with their props, and were able to fly hom e with 5-10% casualties... Is this true?
Wont the prop be-
Damaged
Not able to work
Struck so bad that it no long worked
And even if the prob worked would it not go so slow that he would be a perfect target for the luftwaffe?
He believes that Russian pilots in their Yaks flew there planes to cut other planes(Like he-111s) and cut them with their props, and were able to fly hom e with 5-10% casualties... Is this true?
Wont the prop be-
Damaged
Not able to work
Struck so bad that it no long worked
And even if the prob worked would it not go so slow that he would be a perfect target for the luftwaffe?
I have read of several instances where pilots from many countries in acts of desperation used their plane propellers as a weapon, and so damaging the enemy plane that it either crashed or had to abandon its mission.
Yes the prop would so damaged that the plane would normally be abandoned and the pilot bail out.
In regards to the % figures quoted, I've not come across any such listings.
Andy H
Yes the prop would so damaged that the plane would normally be abandoned and the pilot bail out.
In regards to the % figures quoted, I've not come across any such listings.
Andy H
I have been led to understand that Soviet fighter units were actually under orders, especially winter 1941-42, to use, when deemed neccessary, their props to chop into German bombers - and that on occasion they succeeded. But such tactics almost invariably led to the loss of the attacking fighter as well if not always it's pilot.
from
http://uncleted.jinak.cz/taran.htm#taran
There were three types of Taran attacks:
Using the propeller against the rudder or elevators of the enemy aircraft.
This type was the most difficult to achieve, but also offered the pilot the best chance of survival.
Using the wing as a blade to slice into the enemy aircraft's wing or tail.
Some models of the Polikarpov I-16 were especially strengthened for this type of attack. This offered less chance of the attacking aircraft's survival, but was less dangerous than the outright ram to the pilot.
Outright ram (taranyy udar).
This was the most dangerous type of attack, but was the easiest for the pilot to perform.
There were between 200 and 500 taran attacks between the beginning of Barbarossa and the middle of 1943 (sources disagree and some exaggerate), at which point enough "modern" fighters were available that taran attacks were no longer warranted or sanctioned. Fourteen Soviet pilots were credited with making two taran attacks. One pilot, Aleksandr Hiobystov of the 147th IAP (fighter regiment) made three. Another pilot, Lt. Boris Kobzan of the 184th IAP, made four taran attacks.
http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/a ... taran.html gives a list of taran victories
In general such attacks were made either by outclassed aircraft eg I 153 and I 16 s or aircraft already damaged. Unless the Yak was damaged or perhaps out of ammo there would be no need to resort to taran attacks as the Yak fighters were certainly good enough to shoot down a He111.
As noted in other any such taran attack would result it some degree of damage to the attacking aircraft. I have not seen any figures for the survival rate of aircraft or aircrew in such circumstances. The first quote I posted points to the importance given to pilots surviving rather than aircraft. Deliberately ramming another aircraft would I suspect lead to a higher loss rate in aircraft than 10% but, as the pilot aimed to survive, the loss rate in pilots may well have been under 10%.
http://uncleted.jinak.cz/taran.htm#taran
There were three types of Taran attacks:
Using the propeller against the rudder or elevators of the enemy aircraft.
This type was the most difficult to achieve, but also offered the pilot the best chance of survival.
Using the wing as a blade to slice into the enemy aircraft's wing or tail.
Some models of the Polikarpov I-16 were especially strengthened for this type of attack. This offered less chance of the attacking aircraft's survival, but was less dangerous than the outright ram to the pilot.
Outright ram (taranyy udar).
This was the most dangerous type of attack, but was the easiest for the pilot to perform.
There were between 200 and 500 taran attacks between the beginning of Barbarossa and the middle of 1943 (sources disagree and some exaggerate), at which point enough "modern" fighters were available that taran attacks were no longer warranted or sanctioned. Fourteen Soviet pilots were credited with making two taran attacks. One pilot, Aleksandr Hiobystov of the 147th IAP (fighter regiment) made three. Another pilot, Lt. Boris Kobzan of the 184th IAP, made four taran attacks.
http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/a ... taran.html gives a list of taran victories
In general such attacks were made either by outclassed aircraft eg I 153 and I 16 s or aircraft already damaged. Unless the Yak was damaged or perhaps out of ammo there would be no need to resort to taran attacks as the Yak fighters were certainly good enough to shoot down a He111.
As noted in other any such taran attack would result it some degree of damage to the attacking aircraft. I have not seen any figures for the survival rate of aircraft or aircrew in such circumstances. The first quote I posted points to the importance given to pilots surviving rather than aircraft. Deliberately ramming another aircraft would I suspect lead to a higher loss rate in aircraft than 10% but, as the pilot aimed to survive, the loss rate in pilots may well have been under 10%.
Sturm-ramm
actually the last comments are a bit off topic as we are dealing with Soviet fighters ramming German a/c.
Walter Dahl had nothing to do with the so-called Ramm-jagern. It was Hajo Hermann during the Sonderkommando Elbe mission in April of 1945.
Rammjäger is not the correct word to use for the Sturmstaffeln/Sturmgruppen that had heavy Fw 190A-8's to close in with the US bombers. Walter Dahl was overall Kommandeur of the Gefechtsverband of I./JG 300, II.Sturm/JG 300 and IV.Sturm/JG 3 until his promotion of leading Kommadore of JG 300 during it's hectic 1944 days and finally ace Günther Rall in 1945.
The idea of the German form of ramming or rammjäger as it is eroniously called stemmed from Major Kornatski's Sturmstaffel 1 which during early 1944 thorugh spring of 44 developed the close-in techniques of rear attacks on US B-17's and B-24's. The staffel then was absorbed in May of 44 into IV.Sturm/JG 3 as it's 11th staffel. A document was to be sisgned by each one of the Sturm pilots promising that at least 1 bomber would fall by their guns even in the event as last resort-ramming-
It is funny but there is quite a bit of myth surrounding this document as nearly everyone of the Staffelkapitäns and Gruppen-kommandeur Wilhelm Moritz refused to force the pilots of JG 3 sturm to sign the piece of paper..........
v/r
Erich ~
Walter Dahl had nothing to do with the so-called Ramm-jagern. It was Hajo Hermann during the Sonderkommando Elbe mission in April of 1945.
Rammjäger is not the correct word to use for the Sturmstaffeln/Sturmgruppen that had heavy Fw 190A-8's to close in with the US bombers. Walter Dahl was overall Kommandeur of the Gefechtsverband of I./JG 300, II.Sturm/JG 300 and IV.Sturm/JG 3 until his promotion of leading Kommadore of JG 300 during it's hectic 1944 days and finally ace Günther Rall in 1945.
The idea of the German form of ramming or rammjäger as it is eroniously called stemmed from Major Kornatski's Sturmstaffel 1 which during early 1944 thorugh spring of 44 developed the close-in techniques of rear attacks on US B-17's and B-24's. The staffel then was absorbed in May of 44 into IV.Sturm/JG 3 as it's 11th staffel. A document was to be sisgned by each one of the Sturm pilots promising that at least 1 bomber would fall by their guns even in the event as last resort-ramming-
It is funny but there is quite a bit of myth surrounding this document as nearly everyone of the Staffelkapitäns and Gruppen-kommandeur Wilhelm Moritz refused to force the pilots of JG 3 sturm to sign the piece of paper..........
v/r
Erich ~
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