Luftwaffe Mutiny in March 1945

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
Francis
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Luftwaffe Mutiny in March 1945

Post by Francis » 15 Sep 2004 22:51

I understand over 300 Luftwaffe pilots were executed for refusing to obey an order in March 1945 and that all Luftwaffe archive documents of March/ April 1945 are missing.

Can anyone recommend some good books on this interesting topic or care to share any information on it. What was the order?

Frank

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where did you hear this..?

Post by FalkeEins » 16 Sep 2004 12:12

..where did you hear this...?!! it certainly would be an interesting topic if there was anything at all in it...and I'm sure all those writers on late-war subjects would have mentioned it if there was..
your question is just ridiculous I'm afraid..
there was a "mutiny" of sorts by a group of high ranking officers but it only amounted to telling Göring what they thought of his leadership of the Luftwaffe..no one was shot for doing that..

Kaczmarek: a German view of the air war

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 16 Sep 2004 13:03

Re March 1945 execution: complete rubbish - not a word of truth to it. The "mutiny" was actually a voicing of strong disagreement that occurred, IIRC, in early December 1944 during a meeting of some 300 Jagdflieger Kommodore, Kommandeure and Staffelkapitäne that had been called by Göring in or near Berlin. A few officers were fired from their jobs or resigned, but there was no retaliation against the other 99%. The account of this is well covered in the Adolf Galland memoir and in a number of others.

Re the documents: approximately 95% of all Luftwaffe documents were destroyed in the final week of the war in accordance with long-standing orders from Reichmarschall Göring. Most of the documents were in wooden crates aboard a 50-car train after being evacuated to Karlsbad/Sudetenland from Potsdam near Berlin in February 1945. A short time after the train departed Karlsbad o/a 5 May 1945, it came to a halt in a rural area and the order was given to begin the destruction. The crates were dragged off the train, sloshed down with petrol (gasoline) and set on fire. This is the reason researching the Luftwaffe is such a challenging pursuit.

Larry

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 16 Sep 2004 16:03

Larry D. wrote:Re March 1945 execution: complete rubbish - not a word of truth to it. The "mutiny" was actually a voicing of strong disagreement that occurred, IIRC, in early December 1944 during a meeting of some 300 Jagdflieger Kommodore, Kommandeure and Staffelkapitäne that had been called by Göring in or near Berlin. A few officers were fired from their jobs or resigned, but there was no retaliation against the other 99%. The account of this is well covered in the Adolf Galland memoir and in a number of others...
When Gollob was promoted to the rank of Galland, all the highest in ranking Jagdt-officers riotted. Hitler never asked Galland to suicidate only by cause of these riots. Galland well reported this fact in David Baker's 2 issue of his memories. The riot was real and saved Galland's life. 8) But there were no executions, Allieds were enough for the butchery.

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Post by Larry D. » 16 Sep 2004 17:57

Gabriel - your account is basically correct, although I think the term "riot" is too strong. The outraged Jagdflieger jumped up and down, cursed and made some thinly veiled threats, etc., but I wouldn't call it a riot. The word "riot" generally implies violence at some level, or at least the branishing of weapons such as clubs, bottles, wooden chairs, etc. I have read several German language accounts of the incident, including one of about 7 years ago by the eminent and highly respected German Jagdwaffe historian Dr. Jochen Prien, and most of the writers do not think it rose to the level of a riot.

Larry

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 16 Sep 2004 18:45

It was called a mutiny in Görings ears..........Galland, and Steinhoff plus Lützow before his tragic airmans death, etc..............

there was a so-called bogus raid performed by JG 300 pilots and others to raid the Elbe bridges and even at the cost of suicidal rammings; to bring the bridges down to save a wee tiny bit more time for the Wehrmacht. The action if not performed was to bring on a summary execution of anyone not filling the orders. Needless to say the orders were laughed at

Francis
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Post by Francis » 16 Sep 2004 21:30

Well I've certainly never heard about it before myself until I read it stated matter of factly on a message here on the forum only to go unchalleneged. It didn't make sense to me as I have never read any other similar account so someone is bullxxxxin here big time,

you can read it on the following link

long link

or else type in 'pilots and executed' and search the Luftwaffe formum clicking on message writers name 'Ohdruf' which appears second on the list.

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 16 Sep 2004 21:36

Larry D. wrote:Gabriel - your account is basically correct, although I think the term "riot" is too strong. The outraged Jagdflieger jumped up and down, cursed and made some thinly veiled threats, etc., but I wouldn't call it a riot. The word "riot" generally implies violence at some level, or at least the branishing of weapons such as clubs, bottles, wooden chairs, etc. I have read several German language accounts of the incident, including one of about 7 years ago by the eminent and highly respected German Jagdwaffe historian Dr. Jochen Prien, and most of the writers do not think it rose to the level of a riot.

Larry
OK. Tell me the definition of riot in the Army under Nazism. :roll:

Francis
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Post by Francis » 16 Sep 2004 21:40

apologies for the error in my last posting, you can read the initial thread which mentions the execution of the Luftwaffe pilots by searching the 'third reich and occupied territories' forum using the phrase 'executed and pilots', then click on the name of the second members name down on the list i.e 'Ohdruf'

Francis

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 16 Sep 2004 21:57

Francis -

Mr. "Ohdruf" is a highly politicized and controversial individual who enjoys planting inflamatory barbs on the various forums, especially the "Holocaust" forum. I would exercise great caution when reading his postings.

Larry

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 18 Sep 2004 18:22

Perhaps Mr. "Ohdruf" smartly avoids any hard confrontation about any controversial HOLO-thread on this forum. He knows that he could be pushed out by the too tight censorship on AHF. A real expert in "disinformazia". 8)[/quote]

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Post by ohrdruf » 18 Sep 2004 19:34

To Larry D

I have never posted any item on the Holocaust thread. False and libellous statements made with malice may result in your being debarred from the Forum.


To Francis

This is a Forum for the exchange of ideas. Some ideas may appear extraordinary, improbable to some people particularly those with a limited imagination, a very poor command of English, and no concept of how intelligence networks operate. If you are interested in an idea, my advice is to follow up the reference to its source. Only in that way can you know whether a thing is right or wrong. As far as possible, upon request I will back up any allegation I make personally with the bibliographical source from where it originates.

The source below alleged that at the end of March 1945 in the Lahn region of the Western Front, General der Flieger Barber and over 300 airfield commanders and pilots were executed for refusing to obey an unknown order.

Source: Vajrey & Dancey: German Aircraft Industry and Production 1933-1945, Airlife Books, UK 1998.

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Post by ohrdruf » 18 Sep 2004 20:29

I stated my political view on the Holocaust in response to an allegation made by a contributor to my "Altmark" thread. Those who have nothing better to do with their time may refer to it.

For the avoidance of doubt, it is my belief that the purpose of National Socialism was to exterminate the entire Jewish race, as well as other races deemed inferior, and that the programme undertaken had made substantial inroads by the termination of hostilities, perhaps even beyond the figures alleged. Whereas the figure of 6,000,000 Jews can be challenged for accuracy, I believe it is probably very close to the true figure.

I regret it if this appears "highly politicized". My purpose in steering clear of the "controversial Holocaust thread" is simply that, holding these views, I do not see anything in that Forum which I need to discuss with anybody.

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 18 Sep 2004 21:56

For Mr. "Ohrdruf" - your statements below (my markup):

(1) "This is a Forum for the exchange of ideas."

(2) "The source below alleged that at the end of March 1945 in the Lahn region of the Western Front, General der Flieger Barber and over 300 airfield commanders and pilots were executed for refusing to obey an unknown order."

Source: Vajrey & Dancey: German Aircraft Industry and Production 1933-1945, Airlife Books, UK 1998.[/quote]


To the first: I think, in practice, that this Forum is primarily for the exchange of information, not ideas. Posters are encouraged to express an opinion when it is used to expand on information that has been provided or to make that information more clear, but I do not believe the Forum is the proper place for the expression of personal agendas of controversial or questionable merit.

To the second: there was no officer in the wartime Luftwaffe in the rank of Hauptmann or above by the name of "Barber". You offer yourself up as an educated man. If so, then you should have immediately recognized that "Barber" is not a German name and this should have raised a question in your mind as to the accuracy of the passage in the book you cited. In March 1945 there were only 104 officers in the rank of General der Flieger, General der Flakartillerie and General der Luftnachrichtentruppe. There are at least 3 readily available books that provide the name, rank and other particulars for all 104. This "March 1945 execution" nonsense is just the sort of rubbish that should be kept off the Forum so the younger set who visit here don't go off with the wrong information.

End of discussion -

Larry D.

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Post by ohrdruf » 19 Sep 2004 00:49

Dear Larry D


First, the Moderator states when a discussion is at its end and not You. The age of dictators ended in 1945.


Secondly, if the Axis History Forum were not for ideas as well as information, there would be no "What If" thread. It is the decision of the Moderator whether a thread should be moved to another, more appropriate section, and so far he has not taken that course with regard to this particular thread. Accordingly you should complain to the Moderator.


Thirdly, I advised Francis not to accept what I said at face value but to research at the source. That is the true path of the researcher. So far as is possible I try to provide primary documentary sources for all assertions. I had a discussion with the German author who pointed out this information to me, and if in transcription the officer's name or rank was set down incorrectly, this would come to light during Francis' research when he read the book. For a certain reason, at the time I was more interested in knowing whether this revolt had involved the Flak. The German author explained to me that it was connected with an Me 262 two-seater bomber aircraft deliberately crashing behind American lines at Lahn on 30 March 1945, and that I should take note of Luftwaffe Chief of Gen.Staff Koller's observation in his memoir about the "April traitors". Because of the absence of the Luftwaffe War Diaries, and the OKW War Diaries, over the period in question, we do not know for sure what happened, and we cannot be sure that the War Diaries in question were not destroyed, or hidden, precisely so that we should not know.


If we knew everything about the Second World War, if we had no lingering doubts or suspicions, this Forum would hardly be necessary. The point is, the material may be, as you say, of questionable merit, and many authors like myself do have an "agenda" which cannot be put into print because at present it is questionable. It is through useful Forums such as this one that a writer is able to gauge from useful contributors an idea of whether a lead is worth pursuing, or how an argument might be received in print. An idea of mine which I espoused from another source came to grief a fortnight ago because I had carelessly overlooked a simple point at the very beginning: I admitted my error here and thanked the person who drew my attention to it. On the other hand, pursuing what appeared to be a wayward line of reasoning a few years back resulted in admissions being made by the US Government which have thrown new light on a matter they are most anxious to keep secret for another century. (In this regard, refer to my recent thread "Ohrdruf" and tell me whether this is purely an agenda, or whether there may be something there which needs explaining, and which it is the duty of an historian to investigate.)

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