IS THIS THE SOLUTION TO THE MYSTERY?
Everything has a rational explanation. As regards these unidentified German flying machines, it simply has to be sought by sifting through the evidence.
The Swedes reported a number of incidents between October 1944 and March 1945 involving unidentified flying machines, which they believed to be of German origin, crossing their airspace from west to east at great speed and altitude. They were believed to come from German bases in Norway. What happened to these machines after leaving Swedish airspace is not known. From their observations the Swedes assumed the machines were jet propelled missiles, and a hybrid advance on what they knew of the V-1 and V-2.
All Norwegian sources state that no German remote controlled missiles were fired from Norway to anywhere. This seems borne out on the evidence and so we dismiss the Swedish "robot bombs" and suchlike as a misinterpretation of what these sightings were.
As described in the opening article, on the peak of the 5,700-feet Gaustad mountain top, in the autumn of 1944, the Germans had erected a base. This base is described nowadays as a radio/radar station for the prediction of flights, a harmless, unimportant little spot hardly deserving its fantastic security measures and the effort which went into building it.
This leaves two things unexplained about Gaustad.
(1) What was the purpose of the hangar, launching hall and retractable ramp on that peak, the purpose of which was a mystery to experts of the time, since no missiles needed altitude for successful launch.
(2) Guided missiles are heavy. How did the Germans get them to the peak?
What Gaustad must have been, in fact, was not a missile base but an aeronautical station for flying off advanced aircraft types in absolute secrecy: and the "guided missiles" which the Swedes saw regularly crossing their skies were advanced aircraft under test. These aircraft landed somewhere upon completion of their flight, thus explaining why no crashed "V-3 missiles" were ever found, and perhaps they made a very large circuit to the Arctic and returned to Gaustad peak.
The only thing we are missing now is evidence that such an advanced aircraft type actually existed.
The Me 1073A project began in 1937. It was an 128-tonne mammoth propelled by eight diesels in four gondolas and designed to carry three small Me 1073B "parasite" fighters, which would be flown off and retrieved in flight by a special apparatus. The efficient turbos of the mother craft would have enabled the machine to fly at very great altitude.
The Me 1073A was never built but the shipboard aircraft Me P73 (later Me 1073B) was developed and flight tested. It was a single seater swept-wing jet fighter with two fixed cannon. Wingspan was 4.4 metres, fuselage length 5.9 metres, maximum height 1.8 metres. With wings folded the aircraft needed only 3 sq.m hangar space.
The idea of the "parasite" fighter was abandoned in early 1944 in favour of the He 162 propelled by the BMW 003 jet, but one official source reports that the Me 1073B continued in secret.
The British Intelligence BIOS Final Report 142 8(e) "Information from Targets of Interest in the Sonthofen Area" states that a flying machine known as the Me 1073B, of wooden construction with a skid landing gear, was being tested secretly by the Luftwaffe. It had a BMW 003 engine, but another source of propulsion was being experimented with. This was said to be a 2000-hp engine built "on the atomic principle" which was 60 cms long and 20 cms in diameter, and provided the Me 1073B with supersonic capability and an operational ceiling of 54,000 feet.
Machines of this type would answer all questions pertaining to the mystery of unidentified flying machines over Sweden in 1944/45. What the engine technology was is unknown, but it is certain that in 1946/7 the USAF and Atomic Energy Commission took especial interest in "atomic" work in aeronautics at Dessau.
Unidentified German Flying Machines over Sweden, 1944/1945
Yeah I have a link but it is only one or two documents showed here. If you can't read swedish it's useless, but I could go down to Stockholm and see if I can copy all of the documents and post them here. You can also contact the swedish War Archive..
http://www.ra.se/KRA/sommar02.html
http://www.ra.se/KRA/sommar02.html
I also strongly recommend this page, it contains alot of info on the crashes and the crashsites. Also interviews with the people who saw these ghost rockets. The page is about the summer of 1946, I'm working on a translation to all that so if you just wait I'll send it to you when it's done.
http://www.ufo.se/fakta/raketer/sr46/
http://www.ufo.se/fakta/raketer/sr46/
PPoS wrote:I also strongly recommend this page, it contains alot of info on the crashes and the crashsites. Also interviews with the people who saw these ghost rockets. The page is about the summer of 1946, I'm working on a translation to all that so if you just wait I'll send it to you when it's done.
http://www.ufo.se/fakta/raketer/sr46/
Thank you very much PPoS! You do not need to translate - jag talar, läser och skriver - flytande svenska, m.v.h., Varjag
Thanks PPoS for those links. They deal exclusively with occurrences in 1946 and later and do not mention anything about 1944-45. The Krigsarkivet (War Archive) page alludes to the 'UFO-fever' that gripped the world in 1947 - but 'pioneered by Sweden' a year earlier, due to some 1000 reports of celestial phenomena that remained unexplained. The military interest in 1946 was never focussed on any German doings but concerns that the Soviets had reactivated the Peenemünde facility and were conducting test-firings from there.
The UFO-Sverige pages go into more detail. Notable is - that though several reports state 'crashes or landings' - nothing was ever recovered that related to a manufactured orgin. 3-4 small pieces, alleged to have been recovered on a crash-site were proven to be of mineral orgins. The observers seem all to have claimed flying altitudes as very very low, only a few hundred meters - and with flying speeds well below what one expects from rockets or projectiles. There is further no pattern in flying directions - certainly not west-to-east - as Ohrdruf claims for the 1944-45 occurrences. The areas involved in the observations are mainly in the southern third of Sweden. The only picture submitted, taken at Guldsmedshyttan, some 50 km's north or Örebro, certainly shows an oblong rocket-like object at low altitude but it's flying-attitude suggests that it has just been launched - or is about to crash. The UFO-enthusiasts of Sweden cannot offer any explanation - whilst the military dismissed most of the observations as celestial phenomena.
Over to you Ohrdruf......Varjag
The UFO-Sverige pages go into more detail. Notable is - that though several reports state 'crashes or landings' - nothing was ever recovered that related to a manufactured orgin. 3-4 small pieces, alleged to have been recovered on a crash-site were proven to be of mineral orgins. The observers seem all to have claimed flying altitudes as very very low, only a few hundred meters - and with flying speeds well below what one expects from rockets or projectiles. There is further no pattern in flying directions - certainly not west-to-east - as Ohrdruf claims for the 1944-45 occurrences. The areas involved in the observations are mainly in the southern third of Sweden. The only picture submitted, taken at Guldsmedshyttan, some 50 km's north or Örebro, certainly shows an oblong rocket-like object at low altitude but it's flying-attitude suggests that it has just been launched - or is about to crash. The UFO-enthusiasts of Sweden cannot offer any explanation - whilst the military dismissed most of the observations as celestial phenomena.
Over to you Ohrdruf......Varjag
Varjag
An interesting thread developing, but I notice that my most recent posting regarding the 1944 occurrences has slipped through without comment. Obviously, since it was not UFOs as expected, I left everybody speechless.
As I told you privately, I think the 1946 sightings can be explained on a theoretical basis, but that would be correspondence between friends both having an open-minded approach, and not a subject for open debate.
You are again incorrect in two assertions - I trust these errors are not deliberate. Your statement that "there was no pattern in flying directions" is incorrect since accompanying the US 1946 report was a sketch of the various projectile flight paths from which the deduction about Peenemuende had been made by the reporting authorities, and I suspect you must have seen it since you have the report.
The US report also contained a clear statement that, after initial scepticism, the Swedish and Finnish air staffs had concluded that the objects were man-made and guided projectiles. Your concluding remark that the military "dismissed most of the observations as celestial phenomena" is accordingly untrue.
Varjag, intellectual honesty is important. If the evidence does not support your gut feelings and beliefs, necessity should not be the mother of invention, my friend.
An interesting thread developing, but I notice that my most recent posting regarding the 1944 occurrences has slipped through without comment. Obviously, since it was not UFOs as expected, I left everybody speechless.
As I told you privately, I think the 1946 sightings can be explained on a theoretical basis, but that would be correspondence between friends both having an open-minded approach, and not a subject for open debate.
You are again incorrect in two assertions - I trust these errors are not deliberate. Your statement that "there was no pattern in flying directions" is incorrect since accompanying the US 1946 report was a sketch of the various projectile flight paths from which the deduction about Peenemuende had been made by the reporting authorities, and I suspect you must have seen it since you have the report.
The US report also contained a clear statement that, after initial scepticism, the Swedish and Finnish air staffs had concluded that the objects were man-made and guided projectiles. Your concluding remark that the military "dismissed most of the observations as celestial phenomena" is accordingly untrue.
Varjag, intellectual honesty is important. If the evidence does not support your gut feelings and beliefs, necessity should not be the mother of invention, my friend.
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gabriel pagliarani
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A lot of unuseful words spread in this thread. Simply Peenemunde was on the other side of Baltic Sea just facing Sweden. A small error in trajectories ( sometimes more than 30% of total performed daily..) and your Nazi-UFO made a big hole in Swedish homeland. Not more not less than stupid errors or failures.
Possibly the rockets came from Peenemünde, but it seems like if they were flying from west to east (over Sweden) it would have to come from Norway or even UK. Tell me, why is it so impossible to think that some germans slipped away the allies in Norway to a remote rocket "base" somewhere in Norway, maybe to launch rockets, and wage war, against USSR? I don't seem impossible to me.. And in 1946 a lot of these "ghost" rockets were seen, so maybe the germans still lived then because after that, there hasn't been any more wave of ghost rockets over Sweden after 1946.
Hi,
After the war 6000 of the german rocket scientists went to USSR and 118 went to USA. Soviets confiscated almost all V-rockets and possibly testfired some of them....I would not be surprised if some of them flew to Sweden too.
In 1954 a soviet Mig-15 crashed when flying in finnish airspace...plane was evaluated by FAF and detailed information passed to the west. Pieces were returned to the crashsite and soviets picked them up the next day.
Later also a malfunctioning soviet rocket landed in Lapland.
I'd say it was a soviet experimental lauch that ended up in Sweden in 1946.
rgds,
Juke
After the war 6000 of the german rocket scientists went to USSR and 118 went to USA. Soviets confiscated almost all V-rockets and possibly testfired some of them....I would not be surprised if some of them flew to Sweden too.
In 1954 a soviet Mig-15 crashed when flying in finnish airspace...plane was evaluated by FAF and detailed information passed to the west. Pieces were returned to the crashsite and soviets picked them up the next day.
Later also a malfunctioning soviet rocket landed in Lapland.
I'd say it was a soviet experimental lauch that ended up in Sweden in 1946.
rgds,
Juke
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Juha Tompuri
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ohrdruf wrote:
What Gaustad must have been, in fact, was not a missile base but an aeronautical station for flying off advanced aircraft types in absolute secrecy: and the "guided missiles" which the Swedes saw regularly crossing their skies were advanced aircraft under test. These aircraft landed somewhere upon completion of their flight, thus explaining why no crashed "V-3 missiles" were ever found
What is your suggestion for the route, and how long it would have been ( in km's)perhaps they made a very large circuit to the Arctic and returned to Gaustad peak.
Regards, Juha
I hesitate to write this because Ohrdruf seems such an enthusiastic and nice contributor - but regrettably delving in Phantasmagoria of 'black' (that is - never recorded U-boats) unloading nazis and their riches in Argentina. But also nazi 'Ghost UFOs' overflying Sweden in 1944/45. Sorry Ohrdruf - but your writings have nothing to do with Axis HISTORY - they remain PHantasmagoria.
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Kurt_Steiner
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Nibelung posted in
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63093
a link which deals with this V1 V2 issue
http://www.df.lth.se/~triad/rockets/indexen.html
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63093
a link which deals with this V1 V2 issue
http://www.df.lth.se/~triad/rockets/indexen.html
Varjag
Your posting of three false statements was bad form. I suspect that you, Varjag, suffer from Anti-UFO hysteria, and accordingly you should remain at sea level, where you are an expert on things that go splash in the night.
Certainly I have put up much information about U-boats unloading postwar in Argentina, about foo-fighters, about mystery flying machines over Sweden and so forth. But notice that in every case I produce the reference for documents on which my articles are based, and these documents are to be found in the national archives of the former belligerents. Simply because reports are filed in the Argentine or Brazilian archives does not mean they are less credible than material in the British or German archives. On the balance of probabilities, however, there is bound to be a grain a truth in some of the material about strange German developments, if not in all of it, and that is one of the reasons why this and other threads exists for discussion, and have attracted correspondents with differing viewpoints.
In the upshot, Varjag, you are wrong when you say that what I post is not history. History is the primary documents, i.e. those from the national archives, and what I quote is the primary documents.
To date it suits academic historians, and the Governments who fund their stipends, to propose a history which suits. It may look like history to you, but it is bunk, and it is bunk because it is based on selected primary documents. We are asked to overlook all the gaps and the contradictory primary documents left out of the general reckoning, and gentlemen such as yourself do believe what you are required to believe.
I would like to expound this matter of History a little further, since you do not appear to be too clear on what is, and is not, History. Let me make you an example:
Most contributors to this site will know the assertions that there was an Me 262 aircraft in its component parts aboard the submarine U-234 which surrendered to the Americans in mid-May 1945. Now is this fact History or not?
(1) The senior radio operator of U-234, Wolfgang Hirschfeld, stated in his various books and in reply to television interviews that he had seen the Me 262 machine being loaded aboard the submarine at Kiel in February 1945. At least half the crew of the U-boat said the same.
(2) The commander of U-234, Kplt Fehler, stated the same and was also quoted as saying in the biography of him (A V Sellwood, "The Warring Seas", Whitehorse Publ. 1955 et al) that his U-boat had an Me 262 in the cargo. (1) and (2) above are SECONDARY EVIDENCE and are not History.
(3) The American newspapers of the time, particularly the "Portsmouth Herald", which had a contact inside the Navy Yard, also claimed that there was a jet aircraft aboard U-234. This is SECONDARY EVIDENCE and not History.
(4) There was a Kriegsmarine Loading List for U-234. This document is PRIMARY EVIDENCE. It is History. It is still withheld by the US authorities.
(5) In May 1945, the US Navy issued what purported to be a copy of the Kriegsmarine Loading List for U-234. This document lists all items by weight, and the total weight of the cargo is about 70 tonnes short of the cargo total for U-234 in another official USN document reporting on the voyage of U-234. There is no mention of any Me 262 aircraft in any US document.
So, (4) and (5) are the PRIMARY EVIDENCE upon which History is based. Since (4) has never been declassified and (5) is whatever you like to make of it, History says there was no Me 262 aircraft aboard U-234.
Now you, Varjag, may be the kind of person who is perfectly satisfied that there was no Me 262 aircraft aboard that U-boat. History says so. But undoubtedly you will be generous enough to permit me to present the theory that, based on the doubts I have mentioned, there probably was an Me 262 aboard U-234 and also there was something about the aircraft, probably its type or special structure, which the USN authorities would prefer us not to know. What I would like to know is: What is being kept from us? This is the business I deal in: Suspicious History. You may not like it, but we must pursue these ideas to their ultimate explanation.
JUHA
Upon leaving the Swedish coast above Stockholm, the 1944 machines were observed to fly northwards over the Aaland islands. No other information exists. In 1946 the well-named US Doolittle Expedition to Spitzbergen reported finding wreckage of a German aircraft, details of which they refused to release.
Your posting of three false statements was bad form. I suspect that you, Varjag, suffer from Anti-UFO hysteria, and accordingly you should remain at sea level, where you are an expert on things that go splash in the night.
Certainly I have put up much information about U-boats unloading postwar in Argentina, about foo-fighters, about mystery flying machines over Sweden and so forth. But notice that in every case I produce the reference for documents on which my articles are based, and these documents are to be found in the national archives of the former belligerents. Simply because reports are filed in the Argentine or Brazilian archives does not mean they are less credible than material in the British or German archives. On the balance of probabilities, however, there is bound to be a grain a truth in some of the material about strange German developments, if not in all of it, and that is one of the reasons why this and other threads exists for discussion, and have attracted correspondents with differing viewpoints.
In the upshot, Varjag, you are wrong when you say that what I post is not history. History is the primary documents, i.e. those from the national archives, and what I quote is the primary documents.
To date it suits academic historians, and the Governments who fund their stipends, to propose a history which suits. It may look like history to you, but it is bunk, and it is bunk because it is based on selected primary documents. We are asked to overlook all the gaps and the contradictory primary documents left out of the general reckoning, and gentlemen such as yourself do believe what you are required to believe.
I would like to expound this matter of History a little further, since you do not appear to be too clear on what is, and is not, History. Let me make you an example:
Most contributors to this site will know the assertions that there was an Me 262 aircraft in its component parts aboard the submarine U-234 which surrendered to the Americans in mid-May 1945. Now is this fact History or not?
(1) The senior radio operator of U-234, Wolfgang Hirschfeld, stated in his various books and in reply to television interviews that he had seen the Me 262 machine being loaded aboard the submarine at Kiel in February 1945. At least half the crew of the U-boat said the same.
(2) The commander of U-234, Kplt Fehler, stated the same and was also quoted as saying in the biography of him (A V Sellwood, "The Warring Seas", Whitehorse Publ. 1955 et al) that his U-boat had an Me 262 in the cargo. (1) and (2) above are SECONDARY EVIDENCE and are not History.
(3) The American newspapers of the time, particularly the "Portsmouth Herald", which had a contact inside the Navy Yard, also claimed that there was a jet aircraft aboard U-234. This is SECONDARY EVIDENCE and not History.
(4) There was a Kriegsmarine Loading List for U-234. This document is PRIMARY EVIDENCE. It is History. It is still withheld by the US authorities.
(5) In May 1945, the US Navy issued what purported to be a copy of the Kriegsmarine Loading List for U-234. This document lists all items by weight, and the total weight of the cargo is about 70 tonnes short of the cargo total for U-234 in another official USN document reporting on the voyage of U-234. There is no mention of any Me 262 aircraft in any US document.
So, (4) and (5) are the PRIMARY EVIDENCE upon which History is based. Since (4) has never been declassified and (5) is whatever you like to make of it, History says there was no Me 262 aircraft aboard U-234.
Now you, Varjag, may be the kind of person who is perfectly satisfied that there was no Me 262 aircraft aboard that U-boat. History says so. But undoubtedly you will be generous enough to permit me to present the theory that, based on the doubts I have mentioned, there probably was an Me 262 aboard U-234 and also there was something about the aircraft, probably its type or special structure, which the USN authorities would prefer us not to know. What I would like to know is: What is being kept from us? This is the business I deal in: Suspicious History. You may not like it, but we must pursue these ideas to their ultimate explanation.
JUHA
Upon leaving the Swedish coast above Stockholm, the 1944 machines were observed to fly northwards over the Aaland islands. No other information exists. In 1946 the well-named US Doolittle Expedition to Spitzbergen reported finding wreckage of a German aircraft, details of which they refused to release.
Last edited by ohrdruf on 07 Nov 2004, 02:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Juha Tompuri
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