Unidentified German Flying Machines over Sweden, 1944/1945

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ohrdruf
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Post by ohrdruf » 06 Nov 2004 22:23

Juha

Please refer to my posting of 28 October, paragraph 11, relating to the British Intelligence report on the aircraft which suggests an unconventional engine of which no better details are given.

On what dates was Lapland a neutral country?

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PPoS
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Post by PPoS » 07 Nov 2004 18:02

Ohrdruf, Lapland is a part of Sweden

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 Nov 2004 23:41

ohrdruf wrote:Juha
Please refer to my posting of 28 October, paragraph 11, relating to the British Intelligence report on the aircraft which suggests an unconventional engine of which no better details are given.
So, if the Germans had these impressing nuclear powered 8O planes at 1944, why didn't they use them at combat?

Why couldn't the mystery planes have been "ordinary" planes crossing Sweden? Like the evidence at your initial post (20th Oct): a high flying, fast (plane was not identified and altitude was not known) that sounded as a 4-engined plane. Why couldn't it have been the one that it sounded as?

On what dates was Lapland a neutral country?
Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish or Russian Lapland?

Regards, Juha

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 08 Nov 2004 00:31

"V-stelle" Gaustad was the main Luftwaffe radiolink (Vermittlungsstelle) between eastern and western Norway after the huge upgrades which took place in 43-44. This link was important for sure, but most of the forces in that area was located there to protect the heavy water factory at Rjukan

I have been at Gaustatoppen myself, and there are only small remains of the German installations today. There is only one underground system there, and that is a cablecar going up to the top. This was built by NATO in the 1960`s.

I am sure that if there were any secret rocketbases in Norway, either some recistance movement or some researcher would have known by now......

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Post by ohrdruf » 08 Nov 2004 01:10

Erik E

I am repeating myself here. The evidence states that there were no secret rocket bases in Norway. That is why the machines had to be aircraft of some description. The evidence from Norwegian sources also states that a special effort was put into constructing the site atop Gaustad mountain. If you make make a special request I will copy the report I have, but it is long.


Juha

You brought up the question of Lapland, not I. Since Finnish, Russian and Norwegian Lapland were in the hands of one or other of the belligerents, they would obviously not have complained to Berlin about German aircraft overflying their airspace.

The machines could not really have been "ordinary machines" as you say, because they are not known to history. They flew at tremendous altitude, had great range and were "faster than the fastest fighter", i.e. faster than the fastest known aircraft in the world at that time, the Me 262.

Obviously, the term "engine built on the atomic principle" is not "an atomic engine" in the sense that the engine of an atomic submarine is an atomic engine. Furthermore you have to understand that the development of an aircraft ready for combat is not a matter of a few weeks. The Me 262 for example was over four years in design, construction, ground trials, flight trials, engine trials and so forth.

Whatever went into making this alleged unconventional engine was obviously not known to British intelligence at the time, and all I am doing is reporting what the official documents say. Kindly note that I am not personally responsible for what they say.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Nov 2004 07:57

ohrdruf wrote:Juha

You brought up the question of Lapland, not I.
I disagree.
IIRC it was you that suggested the German wonderplanes have flown route Gaustad - Åland - Arctic - Gaustad.
So over Lapland.

The machines could not really have been "ordinary machines" as you say, because they are not known to history. They flew at tremendous altitude, had great range and were "faster than the fastest fighter", i.e. faster than the fastest known aircraft in the world at that time, the Me 262.
Wonder what experiences those people that heard/saw codensation vapour trails of the wonderplanes had about Me 262 (or Me 163 that was even faster than the Schwalbe)?
Or did they perhaps mean "faster than the fastest fighter they had ever seen?

Since Finnish, Russian and Norwegian Lapland were in the hands of one or other of the belligerents, they would obviously not have complained to Berlin about German aircraft overflying their airspace.
From early October 1944 on there were no Germans anywhere at the coast of Gulf of Bothnia. The planes would have flown either over Finnish or Swedish controlled territory. At those days Sweden was neutral and we were at war against Germany.

Kindly note that I am not personally responsible for what they say.
I do...but...as you are writing about the wonderplanes as they really have ever existed...you are responsible for that.

Regards, Juha

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Sun Tsu
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Post by Sun Tsu » 08 Nov 2004 12:29

ohrdruf wrote:Furthermore you have to understand that the development of an aircraft ready for combat is not a matter of a few weeks. The Me 262 for example was over four years in design, construction, ground trials, flight trials, engine trials and so forth.


The Me-262 might be aslightly bad example, since it was (at least as I've understood it) not exactly "sanctioned" by the almighty leaders...

And from the point where the aircraft is capable of flight, there is not so much more that needs to be done before it can also fight...

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Post by varjag » 08 Nov 2004 12:57

Juha - your extensive knowledge has obvously led u to the same conclusions as mine...... For your further guidance into this thread - let me remind you of General Anthony McAuliffes reply of 22.12.1944 to the German offer of the surrender of Bastogne...it is indicative of the windmills still turning over in lovely South America, Varjag

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Nov 2004 14:35

Howdy Varjag :)

I agree (and have done it from the very start of this thread) mostly what you wrote, disagree only about the knowledge part...
About Gen. McAuliffe, did you mean the N-word :wink:

Regards, Juha

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Post by ohrdruf » 08 Nov 2004 18:24

Juha

Your extensive knowledge is equalled only by that of Varjag. But despite that hindrance, I am sure you now see the dilemma. Guided robot bombs are out, the one thing we can all agree on, and whatever suggestion is made for the alternative, an aircraft of some description, runs up against the problem of its flight path and destination after leaving Swedish airspace.

Ultimately we are left with a single explanation. These German aircraft, whatever they were, flew "subsonic" at all times and had the uncanny ability "to appear and disappear suddenly at will", as an official declassified USAF report put it.

And that, Varjag, since it is stated in an official USAF archive document, IS HISTORY.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Nov 2004 19:02

ohrdruf,

During the Finnish - German, Lapland War several German recon/attack planes were seen over gulf of Bothnia. IIRC among them were Hs 293 equipped four engined Fw 200's.
Perhaps some of them came high flying over Sweden.

Regards, Juha

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Post by ohrdruf » 09 Nov 2004 15:37

Dear Juha

Certainly Fw 200s could have flown from Norway across Sweden. But to make your argument stick you will have to provide the following information to the satisfaction of those interested:

(a) the operational ceiling of an FW 200
(b) the maximum speed of a reconnaissance FW 200

The Swedish AF had intercept fighters, and one assumes that some attempt must have been made to close and identify the intruder aircraft complained of. The Swedish authorities believed the aircraft to be "remote-controlled robot bombs" which suggests that your FW 200 aircraft flew faster than, and far higher than, any Swedish fighter could.

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PPoS
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Post by PPoS » 09 Nov 2004 21:26

The operational ceiling of a FW 200 Condor was 19,030ft (5800m).
The max speed was 190mph (306kph) at sea level and 224mph (360kph) at 15,750ft (4,800m).

It's known that the Swedish airforce bought P-51 Mustangs in 1945, and in 1944 the Swedish airforce had the following fighters (and their max speeds in kmp)

Gloster Gladiator (410 kph)
Republic EP-1 (470 kph)
Fiat CR 42 (405 kph)
Reggiane Re 2000 Falco 1 (500 kph)
FFVS J 22 (575 kph)

And in 1945:

P-51D Mustang (700 kph)
Saab 21A (640 kph)

So in conclusion, the Swedish airforce had planes going faster than the FW 200 Condor in 1944 and 1945. So it couldn't be a FW 200, could it?

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Nov 2004 15:29

ohrdruf & PPoS,

Were the wonder/ghost planes, "seen"/heard over Sweden, necessary of German origin?

Regards, Juha

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PPoS
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Post by PPoS » 10 Nov 2004 17:25

I don't understand where else they would come from. Norway? Not very likely. Denmark? Nope. Finland. Would surprise me.

If they came from the west it could possibly only be germans hiding somewhere around (or in) Norway OR ... United Kingdom. But I have not heard that the britts used rockets during WW2 .. I do know that the british used jetplanes in the end of 1945 .. But so did the germans aswell, even before 1945 ;)

If the rockets came from the east, it would surely be the Soviet Union .. But now they came from the west.. So, hiding germans or the redcoats?

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