Ju 390 Help!

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
gaius
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: 08 Jun 2012 21:35

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by gaius » 08 May 2014 19:38

I am glad to see that you are still on the case, Simon. I vaguely remember hearing about this in the news at the time, but the reporting was short on details. At the time I think it was reported to be a BV 222. Thank you for posting this useful information.

Regards,
Gaius

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 750
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 00:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by Simon Gunson » 12 May 2014 00:01

Thanks Gaius I got an email notification of your reply.

Image

What I find interesting is that there was a pair of all weather ice-free runways at an IJN airstrip on Matua island covered in Whermacht fuel drums of 1943 manufacture. I am at a loss which ship could have landed them here. What I am aware of is that Germany had to perform its own provisioning of bases at Penang and Jakarta etc.



Image

There seems to be a reasonable inference that Germany was making long range flights to the Kurile islands during 1944. Matua Island unlike Parumshiro to the north was not so fog bound due to the natural volcanic heat of the island.

Image

Image

Image

The runways there were lit for night operations, were heated by ducted hot water and the airfield also had a powerful 200w Telefunken transmitter with a large capacitor built in Silesia in 1939 (still on site)

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8584
Joined: 21 Sep 2005 21:46
Location: Michigan

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by LWD » 12 May 2014 14:24

Simon Gunson wrote:... There seems to be a reasonable inference that Germany was making long range flights to the Kurile islands during 1944. ...
??? You think the mere existance of oil drums constitutes a "reasonable inference" of that particular usage? Your definition of "reasonable" seems to vary considerably with how it is commonly used in English.

User avatar
Bader's Briar
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: 23 Oct 2010 21:34

Is THIS a photo of the airfield you were talking about?

Post by Bader's Briar » 26 May 2014 16:37

Simon Gunson wrote:What I find interesting is that there was a pair of all weather ice-free runways at an IJN airstrip on Matua island covered in Whermacht fuel drums of 1943 manufacture. I am at a loss which ship could have landed them here. What I am aware of is that Germany had to perform its own provisioning of bases at Penang and Jakarta etc.

There seems to be a reasonable inference that Germany was making long range flights to the Kurile islands during 1944. Matua Island unlike Parumshiro to the north was not so fog bound due to the natural volcanic heat of the island.

The runways there were lit for night operations, were heated by ducted hot water and the airfield also had a powerful 200w Telefunken transmitter with a large capacitor built in Silesia in 1939 (still on site)
Dear Simon Gunson:

Bader's Briar here...even though, as documented on pages 197 through 199 in the Griehl/Dressel book on the entire He 177 family, which includes a massive amount of documentation on all three of its descendant "truly four-engined" airframe projects, Ernst Heinkel's own statement as what a practical Amerika Bomber would have been in October 1943 was "this", from his viewpoint:

"In our opinion, the Me 264 is a record-breaking aircraft, and does not come up to service requirements for operations in large numbers. The Bv 222 and Ju 290 are far too big and are not bombers, in addition to which the Ju 290 has to be altered to Ju 390 (six engines). This would make the construction effort bigger still. Thus, only the Ta 400 and the He 277 remain as useful operational aircraft" — Dr. Ernst Heinkel, October 1943

...your mention of an "abandoned airfield" on Matua Island in the Kuril chain of the northwest Pacific Ocean DOES seem to be partly backed-up by a photo from Google Earth that I've attached to this reply, from a Google Earth contributor known as "kertelhein", and the suspect metal barrels ARE plainly visible, all "rounded up" and standing at the right of the photo. A 2009 image of Matua Island on Google Earth seems to reveal that the "airstrip" might be some 1.33 km (4,360 ft) long, and runs about as a 8/26 direction runway based on geographic compass directions (not geo-magnetic), almost due east-west.

Now, I have NO idea whatsoever if that "abandoned airfield" on Matua Island in your photo, and the one I found at Google Earth, was built by the WW II Japanese, or later by the Soviets themselves. If there ARE indeed German language-labeled metal barrels on the "abandoned airfield", there could be a remote possibility of those being captured German WW II artifacts re-purposed by the Soviets after WW II in Europe had ended, however unlikely that idea might sound...

...and Japan DID have their own long-range "Project Z" trans-oceanic bomber proposal, of which Nakajima's own IJN-designated G10N Fugaku concept airframe could also have been a type intended to use an airfield in that location.

Just wondering IF you might have seen "kertelhein's" photo before anywhere?

Thanks and Yours Sincerely,

Bader's Briar
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 750
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 00:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by Simon Gunson » 27 Oct 2021 02:46

Kössler and Ott are both wrong claiming the Ju390 first flight was not until June 1944. I interviewed a former merchant sailor Ron Whylie, retired in Sydney whose convoy was attacked by the JU390 during Operation Torch landings in 1942, He photographed the Ju390 with Stkz markings "RC+DA" in 1942 as his ship was being attacked. When I interviewed Ron, he had no idea what a Ju390 aircraft was until I advised him.


Ron Whylies 1942 photo of the Ju390 refutes Kössler and Ott
In Ron's photo, "RC+DA" wore a white band around the tail empennage, which was used by all Axis aircraft in North Africa 1942-43. I say before July 1944 This aircraft was probably designated as the Junkers EF.53, since the JU290 designation did not exist until July 1942. when Ju90 V11, "BD+TX" was delivered as the first Ju290.

Ju390 test pilot Hans Werner Lerche records his flight in the Ju-390 on 28 Oct 1943 in his log book which still exists on public display.
All of these facts together refute claims by Kössler and Ott.

ewest89
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: 04 Oct 2021 20:11
Location: United States

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by ewest89 » 27 Oct 2021 23:00

Thank you Simon. My ongoing research into various Luftwaffe aircraft, and other related technologies, point to an 'earlier than thought' beginning. Keep up the good work.

Ed

Denniss
Member
Posts: 301
Joined: 26 Nov 2004 02:52
Location: Germany

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by Denniss » 28 Oct 2021 01:18

Nonsense, there was no Ju 390 until autumn 1943. V1 had first flight on 20th October.
RC+DA is associated with V2 which either wasn't completed and scrapped or was completed in 1944 but lost to bombing raids in late44 or 45.

There are many photoshopped images of a Ju 390 claiming to bear RC+DA markings

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 750
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 00:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by Simon Gunson » 01 Nov 2021 22:15

The image of RC+DA was not photoshopped It was a contemporary wartime photo taken by an elderly former Merchant sailor veteran of convoy KMF-5, whom I tracked to: R, Wylie 16 Redan St. Mosman. NSW. 2088.

Ron Whylie did not even know how to use email and when I contacted him in 2008, Ron had no idea what a Ju390 aircraft was. My own email was relayed through Zoe at the Maritime Union of Australia
https://www.mua.org.au/ (Zoe at mua.org.au)


The photo of RC+DA was one of a series detailing his ship being attacked by various Axis aircraft including Italian SM.79 IN 1942. MUA posted his images online to a blog which I can no longer locate. The blog may have been maintained by the MUA.

Unjust slander of WW2 Veterans

Some people refuse to accept factual information without casting sinister aspersions on innocent witnesses to history.
How can the truth of historical enigmas ever be established when elderly veterans are subjected to vile personal attacks by smug naysayers?
simply because Ron Whylie's photo does not conform to preconceived notions about development of the Ju390 does not entitle any AHF user to slander the reputation of a WW2 veteran.

Mt own preconception was that the Ju390 first flew in 1943, however R Whylie's photo indicates it was in Luftwaffe service as early as December 1942 everybody is required to reappraise their own preconceptions.

Image

ThatZenoGuy
Member
Posts: 180
Joined: 20 Jan 2019 10:14
Location: Australia

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 07 Nov 2021 03:28

So what was the intended role of the 390? It's a massive bloody plane but if wikipedia is to be believed it's bombload was about 7200 kilograms, less than half of the maximum B29 load of 20 tons? All on a chassis who's top takeoff weight was 10 tons at the least higher than the 29's.

Larry D.
Financial supporter
Posts: 3932
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by Larry D. » 07 Nov 2021 15:20

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
07 Nov 2021 03:28
So what was the intended role of the 390? It's a massive bloody plane but if wikipedia is to be believed it's bombload was about 7200 kilograms, less than half of the maximum B29 load of 20 tons? All on a chassis who's top takeoff weight was 10 tons at the least higher than the 29's.
Long-range bomber, able to bomb New York City, L-R transport, L-R transport flights to Japan, use by the JAAF, etc. This thread and many websites will tell you everything known.

L.

ThatZenoGuy
Member
Posts: 180
Joined: 20 Jan 2019 10:14
Location: Australia

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 07 Nov 2021 16:17

Larry D. wrote:
07 Nov 2021 15:20
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
07 Nov 2021 03:28
So what was the intended role of the 390? It's a massive bloody plane but if wikipedia is to be believed it's bombload was about 7200 kilograms, less than half of the maximum B29 load of 20 tons? All on a chassis who's top takeoff weight was 10 tons at the least higher than the 29's.
Long-range bomber, able to bomb New York City, L-R transport, L-R transport flights to Japan, use by the JAAF, etc. This thread and many websites will tell you everything known.

L.
Right but 7 tons of explosives for such a monstrous plane is logistically impossible to defeat America with Germany's output of planes. It doesn't take an expert to figure that out. And as far as I can tell, without modifications you can't even load a nuclear weapon on the thing, as the payload was in 4 external hardpoints and not an internal bomb-bay.

Larry D.
Financial supporter
Posts: 3932
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by Larry D. » 07 Nov 2021 18:35

.....................no one ever accused the Third Reich's wartime leadership of being sane. :roll:

L.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1251
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Spain

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by Peter89 » 07 Nov 2021 20:23

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
07 Nov 2021 03:28
So what was the intended role of the 390? It's a massive bloody plane but if wikipedia is to be believed it's bombload was about 7200 kilograms, less than half of the maximum B29 load of 20 tons? All on a chassis who's top takeoff weight was 10 tons at the least higher than the 29's.
There are two nice books about the subject, one was written by Karl Kössler and Günther Ott, the other by Heinz Nowarra, both titled "der grossen Dessauer".
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 750
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 00:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re:

Post by Simon Gunson » 07 Nov 2021 21:34

TonyC wrote:
22 Oct 2006 16:39
Hi David,

I have Chris Sweetings' book "Hitler's Squadron" but there is no mention of the Ju 390... can you tell me where I can read more of Hans Baur's memories? I have looked at the link you posted.

I am not doubting what you write but am looking for more reading matter on this area of interest!

Cheers,

Tony
If you wish to track down more, then Ju390 test pilots were Ju-390 project chief test pilot, Hans Jochim Pancherz whose diary records a long range flight to South Africa I skim read his diary once, but it was promptly removed from the internet after I saw it. Take anything he said with a pinch of salt because Pancherz delighted in misleading his British interrogators. He enjoyed telling riddles.

Hans Werner Lerche flew the Ju390 on 28 October 1943 and made many frank disclosures about the Ju390 which contradicted, Pancherz, for example: Lerche spoke of two Ju390 flying. Pancherz inferred only one existed.

Dipl Ing. Gast was co-pilot on JU390 test flights with Hans Werner Lerche.

Image

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 750
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 00:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Ju 390 Help!

Post by Simon Gunson » 08 Nov 2021 01:31

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
07 Nov 2021 03:28
So what was the intended role of the 390? It's a massive bloody plane but if wikipedia is to be believed it's bombload was about 7200 kilograms, less than half of the maximum B29 load of 20 tons? All on a chassis who's top takeoff weight was 10 tons at the least higher than the 29's.
Just curious, where do you get 10 tons from?

The JU390 was certified for a 10 tonnes ( ie 10 metric tonnes) payload.
Kossler & Ott maintain that the Ju390 MTOW was limited to 38 tonnes( Earliest versions of the jU90 airliner had 33,680kg MTOW) with 3,000kg payload.
Image

The Ju390 had weights certified in 1943.

When first certified in late 1943, the Ju-390's Maximum Take Off Weight (MTOW) was cited as 75,500kg with an 8,000km range. According to pilot Hans Joachim Pancherz, the aircraft was put through a weight reduction program in May 1944 and re-certified with an MTOW of 80,500kg with a range of 11,000km

Hans Joachim Pancherz was Ju390 chief test pilot however long after the war he delighted in misleading British interrogators.
USN intelligence gleaned 1943 performance details about the Ju390 from Magic intercepts of diplomatic signals.

Primary mission of the Ju390 was long range cargo transport to Japan from Norway to Sakhalin Ushiro. Russian historical literature refers to German long range flights arriving at Ushiro air base. The National Museum of Finland refers to the Germans creating a Y- Gerat radio transmitter at Nurmoila for flights deep into Soviet Russia:

Image

Image

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”