Nazi Hi-Tech AirCrafts

[Oberst_Emann]

Fascinating. Thanks.

[Tony Williams]

And the Iraqi 'Supergun' was designed by Gerald Bull, the Canadian ballistician whose work is well documented and had no connection with any WW2 German efforts.

And the only mystery over Saddam's 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' is how he managed to fool Western intelligence that he had an active chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programme when he had in fact dismantled it all following the 1991 Gulf War.

TW

[ohrdruf]

Madcap

Whatever the carrier, the important factor remains the warhead.

[ohrdruf]

Tony Williams

The idea of the Supergun in the 20th century was German. During the bombardment of Luxemburg in early 1945, when it was last used, it was still unstable enough to require substantial shortening hence the need for subsequent improvements from elsewhere.

QUOTE: "And the only mystery is how Saddam managed to fool...." Obviously you believe that Saddam was cleverer than Washington and London, which if true says very little for either of the latter.

Here we have a failure of intelligence on so unprecedented a scale that one finds it difficult to accept the possibility.

The previous greatest error of Allied intelligence was the failure to detect two SS Panzer Divisions at Arnhem in 1944 which WERE there. The intelligence failure which led to the invasion of a nation at peace on the pretext of weapons of mass destruction which WERE NOT there is far more difficult to explain away.

Fearful Governments lie to achieve their objectives and I rather think that that is what we have here. There may or may not have been weapons of the kind which I suggested, but the reality is not that "Saddam managed to fool" anybody, but rather that the Coalition managed to fool the public about what they knew was being brewed.

On a lighter note I have seen the case made that the invasion of Irak was done in order to blight a certain prophecy, which states that Britain and the United States will be swept from the face of the Earth by a natural cataclysm in 2005. Horror of horrors should such a thing occur, but from what I hope is relative safety I look forward with interest to the date later in the New Year when it is supposed to occur.

[Matthew Jordan]

On a lighter note I have seen the case made that the invasion of Irak was done in order to blight a certain prophecy, which states that Britain and the United States will be swept from the face of the Earth by a natural cataclysm in 2005. Horror of horrors should such a thing occur, but from what I hope is relative safety I look forward with interest to the date later in the New Year when it is supposed to occur.

Oh what baloney!

There are many other reasons for the invasion, all of which are thousands of times more probable than this... the US president may be religious, but I doubt providence is what drove this man to war against Iraq.

[Tony Williams]

The idea of the Supergun in the 20th century was German. During the bombardment of Luxemburg in early 1945, when it was last used, it was still unstable enough to require substantial shortening hence the need for subsequent improvements from elsewhere.

The German V-3 used an entirely different technology, using multiple firing chambers up the barrel intended to fire in sequence to keep boosting the velocity. The concept proved flawed, leading to frequent barrel explosions, and no-one has copied it since. The Iraqi 'Supergun' was a conventional, if huge, gun with one propellant charge in the chamber. No technical connection at all.

: "And the only mystery is how Saddam managed to fool...." Obviously you believe that Saddam was cleverer than Washington and London, which if true says very little for either of the latter.

Now let's see if I sum up your arguments in order to understand you properly. You seem to be arguing that the Germans developed some sort of non-nuclear super bomb at the end of WW2, and that the Germans and the victorious powers have kept it secret ever since, and have made no attempt to use the technology. Not even in the depth of the Cold War, when the world was expecting a devastating nuclear war to break out at any time and the USA and USSR were facing extinction and desperately seeking any technical advantage.

Furthermore, not all of the world's scientists working since and achieving vast progress in human knowledge in general and fundamental physics in particular have got wind of any process which could lead to such a bomb.

HOWEVER, Saddam Hussein somehow managed to get hold of this 'wonder bomb' (which suggests that it's you who is arguing that he was cleverer than Washington or London) and was developing it when Iraq was invaded. But despite all of the efforts of the thousands of UN WMD inspectors, and the frantic attempts of the US and UK intelligence services to find some trace of WMDs in order to support the Bush and Blair claims that Saddam had some, no trace can be found.

A rational person can come to only one conclusion - that the 'wonder bomb' doesn't exist, and never did. I don't expect you to come to that conclusion, and the only reason I'm bothering to post is in the hope of convincing any other readers of this thread to avoid sliding into such fantasies.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

[ohrdruf]

Von Rundstedt

In the English language the expression "on a lighter note" means that what follows should not be taken too seriously. I suggest you concentrate on improving your understanding of our language before tackling ideas expressed in it.


Tony Williams

For a person who had abandoned the discussion in this thread in disgust you show a remarkable willingness to persevere with it. I have contacted you by PM in order to clarify.

[Y Ddraig Goch]

And the only mystery is how Saddam managed to fool...." Obviously you believe that Saddam was cleverer than Washington and London, which if true says very little for either of the latter.

Maybe Britain and the US used 'Weapons of mass destruction' as a pretext for an invasion? Just a thought.

Which country are you referring to when you say that the “Undoubtedly the machinery now resides in a neighbouring country where the United States and its friend fear to tread.” Iran? If so how do you explain that fact that during the Iran-Iraq war millions of soldiers died on each side yet during such a bitter war this miracle device was never used? This seems odd to me as Iraq used chemical weapons against the Iranians and any country that had just suffered at the hands of a chemical weapon attack and had weapons that could inflict heavy casualties on the enemy would them.

Good day.

[brucev]

I have researched the Peron-R. Richter 'fusion' lab that was located in Argentina extensively. There is no doubt that the US hot fusion push was a direct result of the work on Lake Huemul. Dr. L. Spitzer downplayed it in the press but now we know secretly everyone involved thought it was a breakthrough. ( I stil do)

Basically any idea or notion you have based on press is probably in error. Richter was claiming something beyond nuclear fusion. (I have all of the available information in Spanish-English and made a trip to the region) The fusion was a [i][b]his[[/b]/i] cover story.

This same type of disinformation could also apply to advanced aircraft. bv


[quote="ohrdruf"]Khazmodan

Bear in mind that advanced German aircraft designs are generally based on material released from Allied archives. Contributors to this forum are rarely well versed beyond these limitations, speak from the gut and are determined to remain ignorant of archive material relating to German aeronautical developments released by the former Warsaw pacts States such as Poland.


An indication of the deliberate understatement of German progress in the aeronautics field is obvious from a casual survey of observations and statements made in the immediate postwar period by highly placed British and American Government sources to the effect that Germany "would have won the war through aerial developments alone if they could have held out another six months". If you would like me to provide the quotes I will do so. Such statements make sense of the fact that Germany did attempt to hold out that extra six months for what appears to have been, on the basis of the knowledge the Allies are prepared to let us have, no good purpose.


For example, an official Polish source states that the Lippisch P-13, a rocket-ramjet fighter-bomber able to reach 2440 km/hr with an endurance of more than 45 minutes, was successfully test flown by the Luftwaffe to prove the parameters in early 1945. One would be inclined to take such a claim with a pinch of salt until seeing that the US declassified material, which describes everything pertaining to the P-13 pretty thoroughly - cuts off prior to flight tests in December 1944! What do they have to hide?


Once we know for certain that we have been deceived by the former Allies, the question of what stage the Germans had reached by 1945 becomes a more open question, and we can no longer dismiss so easily suggestions of individual extraordinary advances which fragmented evidence recommends to us.[/quote] :idea: :idea:

[Tony Williams]

An indication of the deliberate understatement of German progress in the aeronautics field is obvious from a casual survey of observations and statements made in the immediate postwar period by highly placed British and American Government sources to the effect that Germany "would have won the war through aerial developments alone if they could have held out another six months". If you would like me to provide the quotes I will do so. Such statements make sense of the fact that Germany did attempt to hold out that extra six months for what appears to have been, on the basis of the knowledge the Allies are prepared to let us have, no good purpose.

For example, an official Polish source states that the Lippisch P-13, a rocket-ramjet fighter-bomber able to reach 2440 km/hr with an endurance of more than 45 minutes, was successfully test flown by the Luftwaffe to prove the parameters in early 1945. One would be inclined to take such a claim with a pinch of salt until seeing that the US declassified material, which describes everything pertaining to the P-13 pretty thoroughly - cuts off prior to flight tests in December 1944! What do they have to hide?

Nothing - because there isn't anything to hide. Nobody denies that in several respects German science was in advance of the Allies in 1945. The victorious powers made full use of these advances, e.g. moving Werner von Braun and his outfit wholesale to the USA to continue his rocket work, which was vastly in advance of anything the USA had. They would have done the same for any other advanced technology, and did in fact learn quite a lot from German aerodynamic research, it helped with the development of high-speed aircraft. There is no secret or mystery about any of this. Anything useful was picked up and used. Anything that wasn't used was either no good, or - in the case of the more fanciful claims here - didn't exist.

I have already dealt with the claim that any new, highly-advanced German aircraft could have won the war for Germany. Anyone who claims that, has no understanding of the realities of WW2. To repeat, the war was won by millions of soldiers and tens of thousands of tanks and artillery pieces swamping Germany. It wouldn't have mattered if the Luftwaffe had had many squadrons of the latest F-22 fighters, they couldn't have stopped that.

Enjoy your fantasies my friends - but don't confuse them with reality.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[brucev]

The "last word" on this subject is in Nick Cook (Janes's ) 'The Hunt for Zero Point' 2001 in UK and 2002 in US ISBN 0-7679-0627-6.
covered in several chapters, especially chapter 21,22 and in ch 23 the Russian outcome in current peer reviewed physics.
The current state of the subject is actually braking daily in the journals. Technically as Mr. Cook points out the SS had control of the projects, not the Luftwaffe or Speer. The entire group of programs were in a sort of sub-culture controlled by Kammler. He was last seen
in the white world May 1945. -{as opposed to the black world}. bv


[/quote]
The project in Hitler's Germany with the highest of all ratings bar none was AEG "Charite-Anlage" classified "Kriegsentscheidend" in 1942. It was linked to theoretical work entitled "Separation of Magnetic Fields". The Bell was a steel cylinder with ceramic lined interior nine feet in height and five feet in diameter inside which plasma physics work was conducted. This work involved counter-rotating at tremendous speeds two containers of mercury and heavy metal substances to create plasmoids. (As a side effect, when this equipment was in operation, the magnetic field it set up could cut out the magneto of a conventional aircraft flying anywhere within seven miles, causing it to crash.) Russian scientists were still able to measure a strong alien magnetic field of unknown origin at Ohrdruf as late as 1980. There were at least three Bells: at Waldenburg near Breslau, at Ohrdruf and probably at FHQ Adlerhorst.[/quote]

[Tony Williams]

You will find books published to support just about any kind of belief you have - that doesn't impress me. Please provide details of the serious, well-regarded, Western peer-reviewed science journals which have covered this story and what they have said about it. Then I'll start to take notice (although I have to admit even such journals are not always right - remember 'cold fusion'?).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

[Ottens]

Nothing - because there isn't anything to hide. Nobody denies that in several respects German science was in advance of the Allies in 1945. The victorious powers made full use of these advances, e.g. moving Werner von Braun and his outfit wholesale to the USA to continue his rocket work, which was vastly in advance of anything the USA had. They would have done the same for any other advanced technology, and did in fact learn quite a lot from German aerodynamic research, it helped with the development of high-speed aircraft. There is no secret or mystery about any of this. Anything useful was picked up and used. Anything that wasn't used was either no good, or - in the case of the more fanciful claims here - didn't exist.

Nothing to hide..?

You should look into the matter of the German submarine U-234. Why is particular information regarding classified, and why was a fake manifest produced? It is curious that, after more then fifty-five years, despite the rules respecting automatic declassification of documents, much of the archive material relating to the cargo of the German submarine U-234 still has not been made public.

A good read for you would be "Hitler's Terror Weapons - From V1 to Vimana" by Geoffrey Brooks, which discusses the Ohrdruf-matter in great detail.

If there was nothing to hide, why then do documents regarding the weapon-test conducted at Ohrdruf remain classified in Allied archives?

[PPoS]

Nothing - because there isn't anything to hide. Nobody denies that in several respects German science was in advance of the Allies in 1945. The victorious powers made full use of these advances, e.g. moving Werner von Braun and his outfit wholesale to the USA to continue his rocket work, which was vastly in advance of anything the USA had. They would have done the same for any other advanced technology, and did in fact learn quite a lot from German aerodynamic research, it helped with the development of high-speed aircraft. There is no secret or mystery about any of this. Anything useful was picked up and used. Anything that wasn't used was either no good, or - in the case of the more fanciful claims here - didn't exist.

If there is nothing to hide, then explain why the US intelligence troops dynamited the entrances to the FHQ at Ohrdruf and classified the reports from the FHQ for a 100 years onward? Then there must be something of great danger (or WAS of great danger) for the USA. So if they got nothing to hide, why don't they just show the papers to the public?

If the public cannot see these papers, they must have something to hide.. Doesn't that sound kind of logical?

[Tony Williams]

No, it doesn't sound logical, because there is a massive illogicality behind all of it. I am getting rather tired of repeating the same obvious fact - that the USA seized all of the high-tech German developments they could to use them for their own benefit. If some super-weapon was being developed, the USA would have had no certainty that the Russians (who were also scooping up all the German scientists they could) would not have found out about it. So in the Cold War that followed they would have had every possible motivation to develop the most powerful weapons they could (hence they went quickly from the A-bomb to the H-bomb). To suggest that they deliberately refrained from investigating and utilising what, according to you, was a technology of great power is to suggest that every postwar US President plus all of their senior intelligence and military advisers suffered from collective imbecility.

And can you quote official sources to support all of these cover-up stories, i.e. not the books which are promoting the idea?

TW