Stuka Bombing

[Warlordimi]

It could do much higher. All airframes are meant to withstand much higher factors than the pilot! I'll scan the page later this day and post it!

[Ome_Joop]

Crazy thanks to dive bombing? Sounds Crazy!
Never heard of this and think if this should be true other pilots should have this too (Other divebombers as many countries had these type of aircraft) as the G-force in a dive or pulling out out it was a max of 6 (modern fighter aircraft can pull more than 9 G....and these pilots don't get Crazy!!!))~
It's more likely they pretended to be crazy and so be able to survive in prison....

Max dive speed for the A version was about 550Km/H and from B onwards 600Km/H...

Modern pilots have G suits and special designed seats to withstand 9 G maneuvers, with out these the average pilot would black out at 5Gs. I guess some are better suited for this than others , but wartime makes them employ less than suitable pilots for such DB attacks?

Thanks for the speed info!

Modern pilots have G-suits!
Why do they have G-suits?
When pulling negative G's (that is what we are talking about) blood runs out of the head into the legs.....G-suits try to slow this proces down...WWII didn't have these so there blood would run faster into there legs ---> No blood(acyually less blood) into the head and you faint/black out ----> after leveling up your hart is able to pump the blood back into your head and you get conscious again!

[Ome_Joop]

[quote="Warlordimi"]It could do much higher. All airframes are meant to withstand much higher factors than the pilot! quote]

True but still 12 G is a lot...can the aircraft still fly with that weight?

[Warlordimi]

It's more an emergency release than standard use however, such high-G pullings are very short in time!

[Ome_Joop]

It's more an emergency release than standard use however, such high-G pullings are very short in time!

I know but in the end of a dive with such high speeds 12 G would simply rip of the dive breaks(or worse the wings!!!) and/or the aircraft would simply stall/not being able to get out of the dive and crash into the ground as it's wings are not able to carry the aircraft!

[brustcan]

One question what would a dive bombing attack be like ? Would they start at 20,000 ft and dive to 3000 feet ? How long would it take to dive the distance?

Hello! A typical dive-bombing attack by a Ju-87 was as follows: Before the dive starts, the pilot switches on his reflector sight, trimmed the aircraft for dive, set the pullout altitude on the contact altimeter. The radiator flaps were then closed, and engine speed cut back, and opened the ventilation air supply to the windscreen(so it did not fog up). Next the dive brakes were opened and the dive started at 15,000 feet at an angle of 80 degrees. The pilot using his small window set in the floor, judged when to begin the dive. The dive took 30 seconds to reach 3,000 feet, the normal height against defended targets. During the dive the pilot had full control of the aircraft, to keep the target in sight. Four seconds before the pre-selected altitude is reached(3,000ft), an alarm horn sounded, and when it
stopped, the pilot pressed a button on the control stick. This early form of
auto-pilot, pulled the plane out of the dive, and released the bombs. After
pullout, the pilot regained control of the aircraft, pulled up the dive brakes, opened the radiator flaps, trimmed aircraft for level flight, and opened the throttle. The maximum speed during the dive was 350mph.
Cheers brustcan

[Karl234]

The 37mm anti-tank JU 87 had no dive brakes. It attack always horizontal.

[Warlordimi]

Here's the chart!

[Ome_Joop]

Thanks for the chart but still i think it's a bit strange for such a big aircraft that lacked speed and manouvrability and was underpowered to pull a 12G turn....seems not very likely!

[Steady]

JU-87 was very maneuverable. It could turn better than many faster fighter planes. What it lacked was energy, or engine power. But naturally it would gain a lot of energy in a dive.

[Paul Lakowski]

80% down angle on dive! No wonder they had little bomb dispersion and could place the average bomb to within 30m of aim point!

I just thought of something. It looks like the actual bombing is done mechanically ,so this may increase accuracy relative to normal bombing. From what I understand if a normal bombadier is under fire when aiming and releasing his bomb, it can through accuracy off considerably. I heard 50% reduction in hitting target, what ever that translates to interms of increased CEP [circular error of probability].

[Huck]

80% down angle on dive! No wonder they had little bomb dispersion and could place the average bomb to within 30m of aim point!

I just thought of something. It looks like the actual bombing is done mechanically ,so this may increase accuracy relative to normal bombing. From what I understand if a normal bombadier is under fire when aiming and releasing his bomb, it can through accuracy off considerably. I heard 50% reduction in hitting target, what ever that translates to interms of increased CEP [circular error of probability].

The normal procedure was to dive vertically on the target and simply keep the target in the gunsight. Almost no adjustments were needed, Stuka could keep very well the 90 degrees dive path, it had no tendency no nose up prematurely. When the preset altitude was reached the plane pulled out automatically, no pilot intervention was needed, he just had to concentrate on target.

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A few notes:

1. Stuka was never obsolete during the war. Obsolete means that there was another plane that could dive bomb better. Well, there was no such plane. That it needed air cover to operate well, does not make it obsolete. Bombers needed escorts, all the parties involved learned this the hard way.

2. Dive bomber pilots did not suffer more from high acceleration than fighter pilots. A dive bomber pilot did one dive per sortie, whereas fighter pilots often had to do more than one high G turn during an engagement. Fighter pilots often suffered vision problems and nose bleeds (see Hartmann for instance). G suits are of little help. They can rise the endurance with 0.5-1 additional G, but are clumsy, and on Eastern Block, where wearing G suits was not mandatory, pilots often flew without them. This is why stubby pilots are prefered for fighters (while not stubby, most German aces were short - Me 109 could be flown only by small pilots, it operated an interesting selection). In general fighters are designed to withstand 7 G continuously, because this is the limit that most humans can take without losing consciousness, and about 10-12G instantaneous. Dive bombers have about the same G limits with fighters, this is why they had very tough airframes, much more tougher than the usual bomber airframe. Aerobatic planes and pilots have to endure the highest G loads. Aerobatic pilots do not wear G suits.

3. A dive bomber can dive bomb even with dive brakes removed. In fact, dive bombers POHs specify dive bombing procedures with dive brakes retracted. Essentially, with dive brakes retracted the dive speed limits are higher (there is no danger to rip off the dive brakes), but aiming is more difficult, because the plane accelerates faster and has to pull out earlier. Dive bombing with dive brakes retracted was recommended if the target was defended with generous amounts of light AA guns (heavy AA could not track bombers during dive). Dive bombing with dive brakes retracted was possible because dive bombers were deliberately designed to generate high drag to counter the dive acceleration (usually by employing thick high lift wings), this design being the reason for the low maximum speed in level flight of the typical dive bomber. Propeller itself with power cut and in high RPM setting is an excellent dive brake too.

[Ome_Joop]

JU-87 was very maneuverable. It could turn better than many faster fighter planes. What it lacked was energy, or engine power. But naturally it would gain a lot of energy in a dive.

Maybe true but going in and comming out of the dive is when the Stuka was most vunerable(as it went in straight and came out straight as well)!

I think people forgetting here that a Ju-87 was quite a big (single engine) plane...it was 11 Meters long!!


Compare these numbers....

JUNKERS JU-87D-1 STUKA:
_____________________ _________________ _______________________

spec metric english
_____________________ _________________ _______________________

wingspan 13.8 meters 45 feet 3 inches
wing area 31.90 sq_meters 343.37 sq_feet
length 11.5 meters 37 feet 9 inches
height 3.9 meters 12 feet 10 inches

empty weight 3,900 kilograms 8,600 pounds
normal loaded weight 5,842 kilograms 12,880 pounds
MTO weight 6,600 kilograms 14,550 pounds

max speed 410 KPH 255 MPH / 220 KT
normal speed 320 KPH 200 MPH / 175 KT
service ceiling 7,300 meters 24,000 feet
range, internal fuel 820 kilometers 510 MI / 445 NMI
range with tanks 1,535 kilometers 955 MI / 830 NMI

MESSERSCHMITT BF-109G-6:
_____________________ _________________ ___________________

spec metric english
_____________________ _________________ ___________________

wingspan 9.92 meters 32 feet 6 inches
wing area 16.10 sq_meters 173.30 sq_feet
length 9.03 meters 29 feet 7 inches
height 2.5 meters 8 feet 2 inches

empty weight 2,673 kilograms 5,890 pounds
max loaded weight 3,400 kilograms 7,500 pounds

maximum speed 621 KPH 385 MPH / 335 KT
range with drop tank 1,000 kilometers 620 MI / 540 NMI
_____________________ _________________ ___________________

FOCKE-WULF FW-190A-8:
_____________________ _________________ _______________________

spec metric english
_____________________ _________________ _______________________

wingspan 10.5 meters 34 feet 5 inches
wing area 18.3 sq_meters 197 sq_feet
length 8.96 meters 29 feet 5 inches
height 3.96 meters 13 feet

empty weight 3,470 kilograms 7,650 pounds
max loaded weight 4,900 kilograms 10,800 pounds

maximum speed 657 KPH 408 MPH / 335 KT
service ceiling 10,300 meters 33,800 feet
range 800 kilometers 500 MI / 435 NMI
_____________________ _________________ _______________________

[Warlordimi]

+1 Huck!

And "big" plane does not mean more stressed!

BTW, your definition of "obsolete" might be consider as "nitpicking" but is still true in some ways!

@Paul: the very high angle od dive was the main feature of the Stuka. It was the only plane that could dive and aim at this angle and therefore, making him the most accurate dive bomber!

[OMK]

To return to the original question.

I'm currently reading Adolf Gallands 1954 autobiography "The First and the Last". In it he mentions that during the campaign on Britain in 1940 the Stukas took terrible losses. In the dive they were extremely vulnerable if there was any AA in the vicinity. As a result horisontal flight bombing was attempted (so the stuka did perform level flight bombing), but were found to be very impresise and due to the slow speed of the stuka they were either picked off by AA or defending figthers. As a result the stuka was withdrawn from the later stages of the attle of Britain.
The stuka was extremely good for attacking targets without AA defence (tanks, trucks, cars), but once AA was brought in they were useless. (Not my opinion, all from Gallands book).

OMK