Stuka Bombing

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
Huck
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Post by Huck » 21 Feb 2005 17:41

Warlordimi wrote:+1 Huck! :wink:

And "big" plane does not mean more stressed!
I'm not sure I understand what you wanted to say here.
Warlordimi wrote:BTW, your definition of "obsolete" might be consider as "nitpicking" but is still true in some ways!
I wasn't nitpicking, I meant what I said. Stuka remained the best dive bomber, therefore it could hardly be considered obsolete. Also saying that Stuka was obsolete because it was vulnerable to fighters is like saying that infantry is obsolete because the enemy has machine guns, which is of course nonsense.
Or are you trying to say that dive bombing was obsolete in general?

Huck
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Post by Huck » 21 Feb 2005 18:07

OMK wrote:I'm currently reading Adolf Gallands 1954 autobiography "The First and the Last". In it he mentions that during the campaign on Britain in 1940 the Stukas took terrible losses. In the dive they were extremely vulnerable if there was any AA in the vicinity. As a result horisontal flight bombing was attempted (so the stuka did perform level flight bombing), but were found to be very impresise and due to the slow speed of the stuka they were either picked off by AA or defending figthers. As a result the stuka was withdrawn from the later stages of the attle of Britain.
The stuka was extremely good for attacking targets without AA defence (tanks, trucks, cars), but once AA was brought in they were useless. (Not my opinion, all from Gallands book).
With all my respect to Galland's skill and contribution as a fighter pilot (Me-262 gained political support only after Galland's strong recommendation, for instance) I have to admit that when it comes to bombers he is lost.

Let's look again at Luftwafffe's bomber losses during BoB:

May-September

Bombers: strength - 1700 / losses to all causes - 1142/ procent of losses from strength - 67%
Dive Bombers: strength - 420 / losses to all causes - 210 / procent of losses from strength - 50%

This would translate in somewhere around 100-120% losses per year. Allied bombers suffered lossses of over 200% per year!
While heavy, the losses Luftwaffe had during BoB were sustainable. Luftwaffe suspended the daylight campaign simply because the invasion was postponed indefinitely, not because of the losses.

Now, about Stuka. As you can see the losses are about the same with the other types of bombers. Those that say that Stuka was obsolete because it suffered high losses during BoB (which again, were low compared to Allied losses over Germany) , do they also imply that all bombers were obsolete, because this would be the logical conclusion reading the numbers. Of course, this was not the case.

Another point. Stuka had no armor during BoB, it was as vulnerable to AA like any other fighter doing ground attack. This has changed radically after BoB, standard Stuka got 600kg armor, and could take additional armor depending on mission profile. 600kg armor for a plane of its size it's impressive, basically it had the same weight of armor as Il-2 Sturmovik in standard variant. Stuka that saw service on Eastern Front beared little resemblance with BoB Stuka. It became an armored beast and it did a lot of AA supression.

The truth is that Allies produced tons of propaganda work to damage the strong image and symbolism associated with Stuka, the way they tried the same with Me 109. What's the first image that crosses your mind when you think of Luftwaffe: Stukas diving in close formation and Me 109s comming fast and low? If yes, then you're not the only one. Stuka being obsolete because it suffered losses during BoB is one of those things repeated ad absurdum and of which source can be traced back to Allied wartime propaganda.
Last edited by Huck on 21 Feb 2005 18:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Warlordimi
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Post by Warlordimi » 21 Feb 2005 18:17

Sorry, english is not my mothertongue :oops: Not always easy to get understood...

I wanted to say:

1st: it's not because the plane is a little bigger that the airframe is less capable of withstanding high G's. The Stuka is bigger than a 109, but more or less the same size (and lighter) as a P47, for instance. It depends on the purpose of the plane, and it's sturdiness, the way it was built.

Edited because of crossposting.

Your second post is perfect Huck!

Huck
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Post by Huck » 21 Feb 2005 19:11

Warlordimi wrote: 1st: it's not because the plane is a little bigger that the airframe is less capable of withstanding high G's. The Stuka is bigger than a 109, but more or less the same size (and lighter) as a P47, for instance. It depends on the purpose of the plane, and it's sturdiness, the way it was built.
This is truth to some degree.
However the smaller the plane the easier is to make it sustain higher G loads (once again, light aerobatic planes can sustain the highest G loads). Once the aircrafts get larger and heavier they need heavier airframe to make them capable of sustaining higher G loads. This strengthening adds weight by itself, and starts a vicious circle of weight increase.

During the war there only two medium bombers capable of diving more than 60 degrees. These were Ju-88 and Tu-2, two absolutely remarcable planes (Ju-88 could dive up to 70 degrees). These bombers had a very strong airframe. For the rest of the medium bombers flock, it was considered unfeasible to strengthen them to withstand the G loads of such dives.
From heavy bombers only He-177 was capable of 40 degrees dive.

In conclusion the heavier the plane is the tougher it is to make it withstand G loads.
Warlordimi wrote:2nd: It was when you said "not obsolete". For me, the Stuka WAS obsolete because it was underpowered, outgunned, even when the war broke out. And it went even worse as war passed. I don't think you could consider it as "not obsolete" because the germans just never found anything to replace it. Like other planes in their purpose(Ju88, Ju52...).
When you say "Stuka WAS obsolete because it was underpowered, outgunned, even when the war broke out" you make it sound like Stuka pilots did sorties to chase Spitfires. Stuka was a bomber not a fighter. What is underpowered for a fighter it is not for a bomber. Il-2, Ju-87, Hs-129 had the same powerloading, this was the standard for attack planes. D-5 wasn't outgunned compared with other attack planes, 2x20mm was good enough, earlier versions were not attack planes, but dedicated dive bombers, there was no need for larger caliber guns. The fast firing twin MG-81 mount was quite discouraging for fighters.

Ju-88 was a new plane, still in development during BoB. It became one of the most prolific and successful ww2 planes. What do you mean they did not have anything to replace it? Why did they have to replace it?
Ju-52 was a very good transport plane, with excellent field performance. It was as good as DC-3, I see no need to replace it.

In general Luftwaffe's planes were among the best in their class, if not the best, for the duration of the war. The only Luftwaffe plane I would call obsolete is He-111, but after BoB it was used almost exclusively on Eastern Front, where it met little fighter opposition. Its reliability kept in service almost to the end, though mostly as transports in the final months.

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OMK
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Post by OMK » 22 Feb 2005 10:54

Huck,

Just to clear up a few points from your reply to my post above: I never said the stuka was obsolete. I said it was withdrawn from the late stages of the BoB because it was vulnerable to figther attack as well as AA. The Luftwaffe could not provide figther support for their bombers over Britain, they simply did not have the range.

I agree with your point that the needs and demands are different for a figther and a dive bomber. I don't think the stuka was obsoloete. In fact, as I stated in my post, it was highly efficient against ground targets that were not supported by fighters/AA. Actually Galland points out that it was probably the German bomber that delivered the highest percentage of bombs on target of all German bombers. To support infantery attacks as a part of Blitzkrieg it was unsurpassed.

As for the statement that the Luftwaffe losses over Britain in 1940 were sustainable I think I would beg to differ. Most aircraft lost could be replaced, but highly qualified pilots could not. Most losses occured over Britain where the crews were captured (if they survived). Furthermore, the German surpreme commander knew he was going for the Soviet. He could not afford to loose anything. For the numbers being lower than allied losses latere in the war, sure. The problem is that Germany had very finite reources. Once the US was an ally resources was not a problem.

OMK

I like that you give Galland some credit. After all he was one of the youngest generals in the Luftwaffe. But sure, having seagulls on your collar does not mean you know anything about the weapons branch that granted you the wings.

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Post by Paul Lakowski » 22 Feb 2005 18:54

OMK wrote:Huck,



Furthermore, the German surpreme commander knew he was going for the Soviet. He could not afford to loose anything. For the numbers being lower than allied losses latere in the war, sure. The problem is that Germany had very finite reources. Once the US was an ally resources was not a problem.

OMK

.
Actually what this tells me is that Hitler didn't listen to his own advice. He told his chiefs back in 1937 that to win any war in europe , they would have to go to a 'total war economy' from the start...which they didnot do. USSBS reports that most german war industries, including aircraft were run at 1/2 capacity through out the first part of the war. Perhaps Hitler should have listen to his own advice and doubled production from the start of the war...they would not have been in such a bad situation later.

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Warlordimi
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Post by Warlordimi » 23 Feb 2005 13:17

Well, war or not, the story would have been totally different without AH... :wink:

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OMK
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Post by OMK » 23 Feb 2005 14:13

Warlordimi wrote:Well, war or not, the story would have been totally different without AH... :wink:
Hehehe....

OMK

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Karl234
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Re: Stuka Bombing

Post by Karl234 » 03 Mar 2005 00:18

Reich Ruin wrote:I know the infamous Ju-87 was principly a divebomber but in many games and films I have seen hints that Stuka's flew straight over their target and dropped smaller bombs from their wings sometimes. Also they used their sirens and dive brakes to stafe ( ie: Opening scene in Enemy At The Gates. I dunno if Stuka pilots did this or it's just hollywood ?
Image

A pic from the scene.

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Post by Steady » 03 Mar 2005 01:59

For sure they would not do it anywhere near appreciable AA defence.

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Karl234
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Post by Karl234 » 03 Mar 2005 11:58

Steady wrote:For sure they would not do it anywhere near appreciable AA defence.
You mean attacking with this angle or no attack in areas with heavy AA guns?

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Post by Steady » 03 Mar 2005 12:28

Stukas did dive bomb targets in areas of very heavy AA defence with success. But low level attacks like the one pictured would make the aeroplane too easy target for ground fire. The Stuka could do one attack like that as a surprise, but during the next attack every weapon on the ground would be shooting at it. Soviets would use every kind of weapon against low flying aeroplanes. They had a method where a whole infantry unit would shoot volley fire against aerial targets. I would be surprised if the Soviets did not place some AA machine guns and cannons along the river shores. For these guns a Stuka flying low and slow over a river would be easy prey. Unless of course the target was already heavily suppressed and the AA guns knocked out.

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OMK
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Post by OMK » 04 Mar 2005 11:23

In mid to late war the stuka was modified with two cannons mounted under its wings. It required (near) level flight attack and was very efficient as a tank killer. Stuka ace Hans Ulrich Rudel developed an approach where he would attack an attacking tank from behind. Since the tank was in an attack it would not relly be protecting its rear and AA is always confused when things are moving. Furthermore, should he be shot he assumed that by attacking from the rear he could glide behind his own lines and avoid capture.

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Warlordimi
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Post by Warlordimi » 04 Mar 2005 11:51

Well, if you are speaking about Stuka G1 and G2, they were really heavy and sluggish. When they entered into battle at Kursk with the modified Pak37, they inflicted heavy casualties to Russian tanks but they were terribly weak against fighters.

One the other hand, the Russian AA crews were getting better and better. Rudel tells in his book that the Russians were shooting at him with everthing they had, using tracers giving him the ability to spot AA defences. Later in the war, they stopped shooting tracers at ground attack planes to avoid them to spot tha AA emplacement.

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Tracer
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Post by Tracer » 04 Mar 2005 13:20

I won't comment on all the fascinating technospeak going on in this thread.. (very interesting read.. thanks very much to all..)

I'll just comment on the original posters use of the word "infamous" and the critiques made about the use of that word.

I think it was an accurate description as I interpreted it as meaning "notorious" which.. the Stuka was..

Carry on.

-Tracer

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