Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
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Reich Ruin
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Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks

Post by Reich Ruin » 27 Nov 2004 04:59

I heard that during the war in Russia the Luftwaffe captured several early model Il-2 Sturmoviks as early as 1941 . Yet they didn't show any interest in the design despite the fact they were looking for a new, sturdy yet deadly ground attack aircraft that could knock out tanks and give the infantry some close support.

The Ju-87 Stuka was good but not perfect for ground attack ( ie: level bombing, straffing, etc ) since it was designed specifically for dive bombing ( I could be wrong but that's what Im getting ). The Hs 129 despite being a neat idea and design was not suitable for the task so......... why not learn from the Russians who built one of the best ground pounders of the war ? Why didn't the Luftwaffe take more interest and create an answer to the Sturmovik so they could unleash a "black death" of their own ?

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Post by Huck » 27 Nov 2004 06:08

Why was Hs-129 not suitable for the task?

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Csaba Becze
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Re: Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks

Post by Csaba Becze » 27 Nov 2004 09:39

Reich Ruin wrote:I heard that during the war in Russia the Luftwaffe captured several early model Il-2 Sturmoviks as early as 1941 . Yet they didn't show any interest in the design despite the fact they were looking for a new, sturdy yet deadly ground attack aircraft that could knock out tanks and give the infantry some close support.

The Ju-87 Stuka was good but not perfect for ground attack ( ie: level bombing, straffing, etc ) since it was designed specifically for dive bombing ( I could be wrong but that's what Im getting ). The Hs 129 despite being a neat idea and design was not suitable for the task so......... why not learn from the Russians who built one of the best ground pounders of the war ? Why didn't the Luftwaffe take more interest and create an answer to the Sturmovik so they could unleash a "black death" of their own ?


Because the Il-2 was not as good, as you think (and as the Soviet propaganda suggested)
The 'black death' was a bit dumb name from the Soviet propapganda also (it was not called by the German infantry in this name)

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 27 Nov 2004 09:50

Yes, why wouldn't the Hs-129 be up to the task? In some aspects it was better than the Il-2. It just wasn't available in the same numbers. The Il-2 is one of the most numerous aircraft types ever built. Over 30,000.

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Post by richardrli » 28 Nov 2004 02:40

Csaba Becze, the Il-2 was better than anything the Germans had, thousands of German tanks and armored vehicles were destroyed by them.

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 28 Nov 2004 10:36

richardrli wrote:Csaba Becze, the Il-2 was better than anything the Germans had, thousands of German tanks and armored vehicles were destroyed by them.


I am afraid, that just in your imagination.
The Il-2's could not destroy 'thousands of German tanks and armoured vehicles'.
The best sources regarding the Soviet successes against the German AFV's the Soviet reports, when they investigated the AFV wrecks on the captured territory, and the German loss statistics. You should check them... It was a very rare event, when the Il-2's could destroy totally any German AFV's.

BTW I don't know for 100% sure a SINGLE Hungarian AFV, which was destroyed by the Il-2's during the war (IMHO the Hungarian AFV loss by the Il-2's was ZERO).

And this statement 'the Il-2 was better, than anything the Germans had' is simply ridiculous.
So, the Il-2 was better, than the Fw 190F-8(and other Fw 190 assault versions), Hs 129B-2 or the Ju 87 D-G variants? Bah...

IMHO the Il-2 was really succesful in only one role: strafing the accumulated NON armoured vehicles (but with the same armament, other planes could do it with the same result also).

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Post by richardrli » 28 Nov 2004 11:25

They did too, by German accounts. It wasn't the 'black death' for nothing.

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Post by RoW » 28 Nov 2004 13:18

Il-2 wasn't an anti-tank weapon, but it was ground support aircraft. Il-2 was effective against light armor. Against middle tanks it was less effective and absolutely useless against heavy tanks, because its angle of attack was too little. One good book with big collection of photos is published in Russia "Ил-2 Штурмовик: Суровая школа". I think it's first attempt to analyse actions and losses of Ils. I have few photos of results of attacks from http://www.battlefield.ru.

P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO. :)
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Post by Csaba Becze » 28 Nov 2004 18:34

RoW wrote:P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO. :)


I am afraid, that your knowledge is not enough, to decide it. Do you know anything about the Hungarian Armoured Units in World War II?


BTW the Hungarian Army used Pz Kpw 38(t)'s also and the VVS attacked them intensively for months, without any success (altough it was a light tank).

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Post by RoW » 28 Nov 2004 20:04

Csaba Becze wrote:
RoW wrote:P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO. :)


BTW the Hungarian Army used Pz Kpw 38(t)'s also and the VVS attacked them intensively for months, without any success (altough it was a light tank).


Nice phrase! Why only months? How about years? :) I know enough about Hungarian tanks. For example about middle tanks:

In April, 1944 2-nd tank division has been sent on front, incorporating 120 " Turan I " and 55 " Тuran II ". The Hungarian middle tanks had Baptism of fire on April, 17th when the division counterattacked Soviet units under Коlomiya. Tank attack on almost impassable wooded and mountainous terrain was unsuccesfull. On April, 26 advancement of the Hungarian armies has been stopped. Losses - 30 tanks. In September the division participated in fights at Tordy, has had the big losses and has been transfered to a rear.

1-st cavalry division (56 "Turan I") in the summer of 1944 took part in heavy fights in eastern Poland, retreating to Warsaw. Having lost all tanks, division in September has been transfered to Hungary.

Since September, 1944 124 "Тuran" of 1-st tank division were at war in Transylvania. In December fights were already in Hungary near Debrecen and Nyiregyhaza. Beside that, both other mentioned divisions participated too. On October, 30 fights for Budapest, have begun. 2-nd tank division was encircled in the city, and 1-st tank and 1-st cavalry divisions fought to the north from it. In cruel fights nesr lake Balaton in March - April, 1945 the Hungarian tank armies have been completely destroyed. All "Turan" have been destroyed or seized by the Soviet Army.

Interesting, how in so critical situation Hungarians could collect statistics about the causes of destruction of their tanks?

(By the way - sorry for my bad English :) )

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Post by Reich Ruin » 28 Nov 2004 22:06

Well I heard that the Hs 129 was not suitable because it had little room in the cockpit ( the revi gunsight was mounted outside the cockpit ! ) and it had insufficent speed and nimbleness. The IL-2 had adequete weaponry to take out at least a Panzer IV with rockets and a good bombload not to mention the guns are pretty good.

The game IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles is well researched and Iv'e flown the Sturmovik in it. It's real good for tank busting and ground strafing. Although I don't know for sure if the Hs 129 was as bad as people say since the Bf110 can do the job well so any aircraft more suited to the task like the Hs 129 should do the job better than the Stuka or FW 190. If I were a pilot my only gripe would have been the engines and the lack of space in the Hs 129's cockpit.

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Post by Csaba Becze » 28 Nov 2004 22:27

RoW wrote:
Csaba Becze wrote:
RoW wrote:P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO. :)


BTW the Hungarian Army used Pz Kpw 38(t)'s also and the VVS attacked them intensively for months, without any success (altough it was a light tank).


Nice phrase! Why only months? How about years? :) I know enough about Hungarian tanks. For example about middle tanks:

In April, 1944 2-nd tank division has been sent on front, incorporating 120 " Turan I " and 55 " Тuran II ". The Hungarian middle tanks had Baptism of fire on April, 17th when the division counterattacked Soviet units under Коlomiya. Tank attack on almost impassable wooded and mountainous terrain was unsuccesfull. On April, 26 advancement of the Hungarian armies has been stopped. Losses - 30 tanks. In September the division participated in fights at Tordy, has had the big losses and has been transfered to a rear.

1-st cavalry division (56 "Turan I") in the summer of 1944 took part in heavy fights in eastern Poland, retreating to Warsaw. Having lost all tanks, division in September has been transfered to Hungary.

Since September, 1944 124 "Тuran" of 1-st tank division were at war in Transylvania. In December fights were already in Hungary near Debrecen and Nyiregyhaza. Beside that, both other mentioned divisions participated too. On October, 30 fights for Budapest, have begun. 2-nd tank division was encircled in the city, and 1-st tank and 1-st cavalry divisions fought to the north from it. In cruel fights nesr lake Balaton in March - April, 1945 the Hungarian tank armies have been completely destroyed. All "Turan" have been destroyed or seized by the Soviet Army.

Interesting, how in so critical situation Hungarians could collect statistics about the causes of destruction of their tanks?

(By the way - sorry for my bad English :) )


Probably it's enough for you as a knowledge, but your statements are mostly wrong.
Hungarian tanks took part in the fight on the eastern front in 1941, 1942 and 1943 also. The mentioned date, 17 April was the baptism of fire of the Turan tanks, not the Hungarian Armoured units!!!! BTW the counterattack was partially succesful.
Bah... I don't continue to correct your mistakes or that 'discussion'.
This is the main problem with this forum: many visitors with huge self reliance but without real knowledge.

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Post by Csaba Becze » 28 Nov 2004 22:31

Reich Ruin wrote:Well I heard that the Hs 129 was not suitable because it had little room in the cockpit ( the revi gunsight was mounted outside the cockpit ! ) and it had insufficent speed and nimbleness. The IL-2 had adequete weaponry to take out at least a Panzer IV with rockets and a good bombload not to mention the guns are pretty good.

The game IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles is well researched and Iv'e flown the Sturmovik in it. It's real good for tank busting and ground strafing. Although I don't know for sure if the Hs 129 was as bad as people say since the Bf110 can do the job well so any aircraft more suited to the task like the Hs 129 should do the job better than the Stuka or FW 190. If I were a pilot my only gripe would have been the engines and the lack of space in the Hs 129's cockpit.


The Hs 129 was a fairly good assault plane and you should forget the myth around the Il-2.

I know well the Forgotten Battles also (just check the manual of that game and you will find my name too)

BTW I have discussed the Il-2's performance with Oleg Maddox also (he is an excellent engineer and a very nice fellow).

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Post by RoW » 28 Nov 2004 23:16

Read it again. It was an example! But I am agree what the main problem with this forum: many visitors with huge self reliance but without real knowledge. You have no knowledge about history of Il-2, VVS units and so on. Your only argument - it's all Soviet/Bolshevik/Russian propaganda! I read many post-Cold War books (not Soviet propaganda) about this plane and talked with its pilots. And I think actions of this planes were more considerable than actions of all Hungarian Armoured units and it deserves more serious investigations than "it's all myth and propaganda:".

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Post by Huck » 28 Nov 2004 23:43

RoW wrote:I read many post-Cold War books (not Soviet propaganda) about this plane and talked with its pilots. And I think actions of this planes were more considerable than actions of all Hungarian Armoured units and it deserves more serious investigations than "it's all myth and propaganda:".


If you have such good knowledge of Il-2 operations then you must know the number of tanks destroyed by them (the number of tanks plus self propelled guns without the number of armored cars and halftracks). Can you tell us this number?

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