Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 29 Nov 2005 13:25

There's no rush. We are talking about events that happened over 60 years ago.

All the best

Andreas

M.Rausch
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Post by M.Rausch » 04 Dec 2005 14:33

Ok, I digged out several occasions, where the successfull atttack of cannon armed Ju-87 were made on Russian tanks breaking through the frontline. But there were never times and exact locations listed. Here are the examples I could find (there are more, but no time to reread more of them up). There are many other battles listed, but for these there seems to have a mix of cannon-armed planes and normal Ju-87 with HEAT bomblets be used, also FW 190 F equipped with anti-tank rockets.

- 30.3.1944 at Parlitti

- 10. (Pz)/SG 3 several times during the defense of Wilna

- Same formation on 28.7.1944 attack on 25 broken-through Russian tanks at Mietan, 21 tanks were left behind.

- Same formation stopped tank breakthrough in April 1944 north of Jassny.


Additionally Rudels books points out periods of days and sometimes even weeks, where continously broken through Russian tanks were attacked. And in February the Luftflotte 4 formed the "Panzerjagdkommando Weiß" at Chartiza, which spezialized on attacking broken-through tanks.

I have also learned that there were far more tank kills with anti-tank rocket equipped FW 190 F variants than I ever imagined.

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 05 Dec 2005 23:53

consider one aces account: Andreas Kuffner

Hauptmann
*30.05.1918 in Deisenhofen/Oberbayern

RK 16.04.1943 as Oberleutnant after 600 combat missions
EL (No. 684) 20.12.1944 as hauptmann after 745 combat missions and approx. 60 tank kills

1937 he joined the Luftwaffe. He took part in the French campaign as Wachtmeister with a light Flak battery and recieved the EK II on 22.06.1940. Back in 1939 he had volunteered for pilot training but he was not accepted before August 1940 when he was sent to a Flugzeugführerschule. After his training in December 1941 he joined I./StG 2 in january 1942 at the northern sector of the Ostfront. Just 3 months later he had accumulated 200 combat missions. Since spring 1942 deployed to the southern sector. On 25.05.1942 he recieved the Ehrenpokal and in September 1942 the DKiG. In autumn 1942 he was wounded in air-combat and had to force land at the own Panzerspitzen. Until December he was in the homeland, afterwards Staffelführer of 4./StG.2 back in the east (Ukraine, Donez, Krim, Kuban Bridge Head). After 600 FF transferred to III./SG 151, which flew in the croatian area Bandeneinsätze (COIN). In February 44 as Staffelkapitän assigned with the deployment of 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 which he led with great success on almost all front areas 04.08.1944 named in OKW report (namentliche Nennung im OKW Bericht). 01.09.1944 promoted to Hauptmann. 25.09.1944 his Staffel destroyed their 300th tank since deployment. 22.10.1944 he destroyed his 50th tank with Ju 87 G. Since January 1945 Gruppenkommandeur I.(Pz.)/SG 9

30.04.1945 he was shot down and klilled over Sülte near Schwerin by a Spitfire. On the same occasion both Staffelkapitäne(RK reciepients) were shot down: Rainer Nossek (killed) and Wilhelm Bromen (badly wounded)

He had a total of more than 900 combat missions as Stuka-and Panzerschlachtflieger. More than 60 tank kills.

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 06 Dec 2005 11:28

Mattias

Thanks for posting the examples!

Erich, I prefer 'kill claims', instead of 'kills', but that is just me being difficult. ;)

I'll resend the picture tonight, unless I end up drinking too much with my colleague, BTW.

All the best

Andreas

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 06 Dec 2005 17:49

Andreas thanks for the resend of the pic.........watch that Alcohol friend :D

this was Rüdels replacement in 10.(Pz)SG 2

Anton Korol
Leutnant
* 08.10.1916 Breitenmarkt/Oberschlesien

RK 12.03.1945 as Leutnant after 600 FF

One of the best "Tank hunters" of SG 2 "Immelmann". He took part in the Polish campaign as Uffz. with 10./Inf.Rgt. 7. The French campaign saw him with 2./Inf.Rgt. 417 where he was promoted to Feldwebel on 14.03.1941. As an "old" glider flyer he volunteered for LW and changed from Heer to LW on 16.07.1941. He was trained as pilot and transferred to Stuka-Vorschule Graz and the to Stuka-Schule 2 at Piacenza-Foggia(italy). 01.11.1942 promoted to Leutnant der Reserve. 1943 he was with Erg.Staffel St.G. 2 and II./ST.G. 151. In combat from 01.07.1943-31.08.1944 with 3./St.G.2 (later 3./SG 2) "Immelmann" at the eastern front. 11.07.1943 first combat mission (FF) in the area of Charkow: 500. FF on 22.08.1944 in the area of Jassy(Romania). In March 1944 he destroyed with Hptm. Meyering and another pilot (N.N.) a strategically important bridge over the river Bug in the area north of Perwomaisk in spite of heavy Flak fire with all three a/c hitting the target. 13.06.1944 Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. Because of his outstanding achievements he was appointed Staffelkapitän of 10.(Pz.)/SG 2, which he led until wars end with great success.

704 combat missions
4 times he was shot down
99 confirmed tank kills with "Kanonenmaschinen" - Ju 87G, one of those being a "Stalinpanzer" (IS-2)
~200 tanks heavily damaged or disabled

Michael Kenny
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Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Dec 2005 20:55

Erich wrote:99 confirmed tank kills with "Kanonenmaschinen" - Ju 87G, one of those being a "Stalinpanzer" (IS-2)
~200 tanks heavily damaged or disabled



Not to be awkward but is the 99 'confirmed' kills AFTER the automatic 30-50% reduction applied to the claims?
Did he claim 130-150 and he was awarded 99?
Is it that German ground attack planes were better than Allied one by a factor of x10?
Did anyone read the Dupuy link and like to challenge its conclusions?
http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum ... 00016.html

This from another thread here

"It is striking that even with huge air superiority and omnipresent close air support only 35 French tanks were taken out by German aicrafts."

viewtopic.php?t=90110&highlight=

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 09 Dec 2005 17:49

more .........

Josef Blümel

Feldwebel
* 15.08.1920 Prode/Kreis Trautenau (Sudeten)
RK 28.01.1945 as Feldwebel posthumously


He joined Lw in autumn 1940 and was trained as pilot. Though, he only made his first combat missions in April 1944 on the Krim (Crimean Peninsula) when he came from 5./SG 151 as Unteroffizier to the newly mustered 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 (which flew anti tank missions for the first time in april 44). Within a short time he became one of the best tank hunters and most successful Schwarmführer of the Panzerjagdstaffel of SG 3. He destroyed his 34th tank on 28.07.1944 and was promoted to Feldwebel with effect from 01.07.1944. On his 123rd combat mission he would destroy 2 tanks for his 52nd and 53rd tank kills. His 59th followed on the 17.09.1944.

On the 19.09.1944 Blümel had a combat mission between 9.20-10.00hrs which brought his 60th tank kill. On the 2nd mission at 11.10 his Ju 87 G-2 (WNr. 494231) was heavily damaged by Soviet FlaMG and he had to crash-land his plane behind enemy lines. After the emergency landing near Kekava (18km south of Riga) Blümel and his Bordfunker Obergefreiter Hermann Schwärzel were executed (Obermeier wrote murdered) but shot in the neck from Russians (Soviet soldiers? not all were Russians). 3 days later they were found by a search squad consisting of Heer troops and members of the Panzerjagdstaffel under the leadership of Hptm. Kuffne,r in the meanwhile had retaken the crash location. They were buried with military honors.

Ehrenpokal and DKiG were awarded posthumously on 28.and 29.09.1944.

total of approx. 150 combat missions as Panzerjäger with Ju 87: 60 tanks destroyed

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-Koenig-
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Post by -Koenig- » 09 Dec 2005 20:55

Michael Kenny wrote:
"It is striking that even with huge air superiority and omnipresent close air support only 35 French tanks were taken out by German aicrafts."

viewtopic.php?t=90110&highlight=


I don't think this is very relevant to the questioning of the claims made by cannon armed Ju87-G aircraft. In 1940 we are talking about a Luftwaffe that only really attacked tanks with bombs. Bombs were known to be very ineffective against tanks, which is proven by the low numbers taken out by the Luftwaffe in 1940. There is however no doubt that an anti-tank aircraft armed with cannon can take out a tank if hit properly.

Like you, I also question the kill claims of virtually every combat pilot. Who wouldn't question the accuracy of claims made in highly stressfull, confusing situations which are taking place at hundreds of miles per hour? Personally I like to look at all the other accomplishments of combat pilots to get a more complete picture. For myself, the sortie total is one of the more accurate stats. I can't see many pilots getting away with overclaiming the amount of times they flew a sortie. I try and put the sortie totals in perspective by comparing them to something most of us do on a daily basis...commute to work! Imagine your drive to and from work, five days a week, for roughly 50 weeks in a year and you come up with ~250 'sorties' to and from work. Imagine how many times you've had to slam the brakes on, or avoid accidents, and then factor in that these pilots were flying in highly stressfull situations, at high speeds, being hunted down by fighters, shot at by hundreds of anti-aircraft guns and small-arms, and flying dangerously close to the ground. For some of these combat pilots to rack up sorties into the hundreds and even thousands is the most telling statistic for me. Kill claims (however inherently inaccurate they are) are still a very important statistic, but for me personally, sorties flown is just as, if not more important.

Regards,

-Koenig-

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HealzDevo
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Post by HealzDevo » 14 Jan 2006 06:53

I wonder about how the cannon effectiveness compares with the effectiveness of the cannon on the P-47 Thunderbolt? Also could we add in the A-10 Thunderbolt's figures just to see whether there is a real difference in penetration ratios over 60 years. I realise the armour of targets has changed but am interested in how the ratios compare.

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Trommelfeuer
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Post by Trommelfeuer » 15 Jan 2006 21:25

Just dropping by to add two ebooks and two photos to this very interesting thread... :idea:

"HS129 Panzerjäger!" and "Hs 129 in Combat Sch.G 1 & Sch.G 2"

Both ebooks on betah.co.il, "Aviation", page 14 & 18.

...photos are from "Hs 129 in Combat Sch.G 1 & Sch.G 2", page 32 & 97.

Edit: ...the 2nd photo is also in "HS129 Panzerjäger!" , p. 122.
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Last edited by Trommelfeuer on 17 Jan 2006 21:52, edited 3 times in total.

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Trommelfeuer
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Post by Trommelfeuer » 15 Jan 2006 22:24

Tony Williams wrote:... Yes, but if you're flying straight at a tank you have to allow time for (1) pulling back the stick, and (2) the plane responding to that sufficiently to change direction to climb above the tank. So you would have to decide to pull up before the last 100m!


Well, yea, that's seems indeed to be a tricky part of Tank-Busting with a Hs 129...

"On January 5 (1943) Staffel commander Oblt. Eduard Kent made a show for the other pilots of an attack on a wreckage of a T-34 tank standing near the airfield. On the second strike the tail of his Henschel Hs 129. W.Nr. 0275, caught on the tank's turret. The tail unit broke off the rest of the plane, which crahed into the ground, burying the pilot in the wreck. The Staffel's new commander was now Hptm. Dietrich Gerhard."

( "Hs 129 in Combat Sch.G 1 & Sch.G 2", page 38.)

"On 19 July (1943), a Schwarm of Hs 129s from 4./Sch.G 2 was alerted that five T-34 had again appeared at a point on the railway line where they had stopped a goods train and their crews were busy destroying the tracks with demolition charges. The Schwarm immediately engaged the tanks and knocked them out but suffered a major loss in the process. Major Matuschek, the Staffelkapitän, had expended almost all his ammunition on a tank witout causing any apparent damage. In a final and determined assault which he pressed home to point-blank range, he fired off his remainging ammunition but misjuged the moment he should have pulled up and flew full tilt into his intended victim. As his comrades watched in horror, both aircraft and tank disappeared in a single massive explosion.

( "HS129 Panzerjäger!", page 153.)

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kfbr392
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Post by kfbr392 » 15 May 2007 14:21

BTW, the single engined Hs 123 seems to have been very popular, precise and rugged. I never read about how well/ if it was armored...

Who has data on armoring of the Hs 123?


Thanks, Matt

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flying dutchman
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Post by flying dutchman » 15 May 2007 15:20

IWonderWhatHappenedToThisHenschel

Good question. Perhaps it made a belly landing?
I would repair the malfunctioning landinggear first, if only to get the plane of it's belly.
Perhaps it was captured before they got to fixing the engines?

Edward L. Hsiao
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Re: Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 24 Jul 2019 00:37

Any Hs-123 pilots that were aces(expert) with them?

Edward L. Hsiao

Andrew Arthy
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Re: Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks

Post by Andrew Arthy » 25 Jul 2019 01:54

Hi Edward,

No, there were no Hs 123 aces. My colleague, Morten Jessen, has written a two-part eArticle about that particular aircraft type (see https://airwarpublications.com/earticle ... amouflage/), and will publish a book about the Henschel 123 in the future.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

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