How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003, 06:16
Location: Canada

How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

#1

Post by Paul Lakowski » 28 Jan 2005, 07:55

Lots of debates surround german jet programs and how would the allies have reacted to earlier Me-262 deployment [if that became feasible]. So how soon did they detect them? I thought the Meteor was a reaction to the Me-262 program but reading the history its conception is connected to the BoB not to Me-262 development.

gabriel pagliarani
Member
Posts: 1583
Joined: 01 Aug 2002, 04:11
Location: ITALY

Re: How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

#2

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 29 Jan 2005, 22:28

Paul Lakowski wrote:Lots of debates surround german jet programs and how would the allies have reacted to earlier Me-262 deployment [if that became feasible]. So how soon did they detect them? I thought the Meteor was a reaction to the Me-262 program but reading the history its conception is connected to the BoB not to Me-262 development.
The bloody "Battle of Ball Bearings" over Klagenfurt and Ratisbona (Regensburg) was darely attempted to stop the production of small turbines for aeronautical purposes. This was the only strategical device having no way to substitute ball-bearings with bronze bearings, therefore USAAF intelligence was perfectly aware about turbo-Jumos in early 1943. A lot of words were expended about tanks, trains and submarines but the real target of US bombers was to kill the Schwalbe project just before massive assignements to the JGs. Boeings failed, but Hitler had more success in killing this menace by changing suddenly the role of the Schwalbe from interceptor to JaBo and loosing a further year.


brustcan
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: 30 Mar 2004, 05:38
Location: canada

Re: How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

#3

Post by brustcan » 02 Feb 2005, 21:51

Paul Lakowski wrote:Lots of debates surround german jet programs and how would the allies have reacted to earlier Me-262 deployment [if that became feasible]. So how soon did they detect them? I thought the Meteor was a reaction to the Me-262 program but reading the history its conception is connected to the BoB not to Me-262 development.
Hello! During the summer of 1944, the first Me-262A-0s were delivered to Rechlin for experimental testing. Then late in June, the first jet fighter unit was established at Lechfeld near Augsburg. Called Erprobungskommando 262(experimental unit 262). This unit flew single flights against reconnaissance aircraft. On July 25, 1944 a photo-recon Mosquito from No. 544 Squadron RAF was flying over Munich area, when the observer, F/O Lobban spotted an enemy aircraft in the distance. The pilot F/LT Wall quickly accelerated, but was surprised that the enemy was still closing rapidly. After evading five firing passes from the Me-262, Wall managed to dive into a cloud bank, and eventually crash landed the Mosquito back at Fermo, Italy(his base). The RAF now knew the Germans had a jet aircraft. Cheers brustcan

Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003, 06:16
Location: Canada

Re: How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

#4

Post by Paul Lakowski » 02 Feb 2005, 22:16

brustcan wrote:
Paul Lakowski wrote:Lots of debates surround german jet programs and how would the allies have reacted to earlier Me-262 deployment [if that became feasible]. So how soon did they detect them? I thought the Meteor was a reaction to the Me-262 program but reading the history its conception is connected to the BoB not to Me-262 development.
Hello! During the summer of 1944, the first Me-262A-0s were delivered to Rechlin for experimental testing. Then late in June, the first jet fighter unit was established at Lechfeld near Augsburg. Called Erprobungskommando 262(experimental unit 262). This unit flew single flights against reconnaissance aircraft. On July 25, 1944 a photo-recon Mosquito from No. 544 Squadron RAF was flying over Munich area, when the observer, F/O Lobban spotted an enemy aircraft in the distance. The pilot F/LT Wall quickly accelerated, but was surprised that the enemy was still closing rapidly. After evading five firing passes from the Me-262, Wall managed to dive into a cloud bank, and eventually crash landed the Mosquito back at Fermo, Italy(his base). The RAF now knew the Germans had a jet aircraft. Cheers brustcan
Wow so your saying they didnot know about it until 1944? I thought P-80shooting star was developed in 1943 because of Me-262 development?

brustcan
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: 30 Mar 2004, 05:38
Location: canada

Re: How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

#5

Post by brustcan » 03 Feb 2005, 06:45

[/quote]
Wow so your saying they didnot know about it until 1944? I thought P-80shooting star was developed in 1943 because of Me-262 development?[/quote]

Hello! The invention of the jet engine started with Whittle in England. In May 1936 a young physicist joined the Heinkel company. Pabst von Ohain came up with a jet engine, that was different from Whittle's and received a patent for it. With Heinkel's help, he came up with the He S 3A jet engine that powered the world's first jet aircraft, the He-178. It was only when the RLM saw the jet engine, that they started an official jet engine
programme, asking BMW, Bramo, and Junkers to set up their own programmes. Heinkel on his own started working on the world's first jet fighter, the He-280, using his own engines. The aircraft without it engines was used for gliding trials in Sept. 1940. The RLM had only seen the Me-262 wooden mock-up on Dec. 19, 1939, with a development contract in place for three prototypes on March 1, 1940. Heinkels aircraft flew on April 2, 1941. The Gloster-Whittle flew on May 15, 1941, and the Me-262 did not fly jet powered until July 18, 1942. England shared their jet engine
knowledge with the America, whereas in Germany, nothing was shared, with each aircarft manufacturer competing against each other! The reason that the He-280 did not enter service(even though an order had been placed for 100) was Heinkel was developing his engines with a very small staff. With delays in the engines, the RLM cancelled the He-280 in March 1943. With the Junkers Jumo engines available, the Me-262 had won the race. Because of the rivalry between Heinkel and Messerschmitt, most of the people of the Luftwaffe didn't even know that there was a jet. So one can't blame the allies for not knowing. Even to this day, the He-280 is forgotten..first plane designed as a jet fighter, first ejection seat, first German aircraft with a nose wheel etc. Cheers brustcan

Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003, 06:16
Location: Canada

#6

Post by Paul Lakowski » 03 Feb 2005, 17:34

brustcan thanks for the update and yes the germans were their own worse enemy all the way through the war!

What I'm interested in is, if the Me-262 or He-280 were fielded earlier due to the development of both the jet and more importantly the jet engines becoming strategic programs, a combat jet could have been put into mass production as early as 1943.

What I'm wondering is how early the allies would have been able to detect the entry of such a weapon into mass production? In the case of the Tiger tank I understand the allies only caught wind of it after the Russians reported a new heavy tank at the end of 1942.

gabriel pagliarani
Member
Posts: 1583
Joined: 01 Aug 2002, 04:11
Location: ITALY

#7

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 03 Feb 2005, 23:09

:? Who was born as first? The egg or the chicken? :lol:

Adam T
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 19 Nov 2004, 02:15
Location: Orange, Australia

#8

Post by Adam T » 03 Feb 2005, 23:47

gabriel pagliarani wrote::? Who was born as first? The egg or the chicken? :lol:

Bacon!!! :lol:


Sorry guys, couldn't resist

brustcan
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: 30 Mar 2004, 05:38
Location: canada

#9

Post by brustcan » 04 Feb 2005, 01:22

Paul Lakowski wrote:brustcan thanks for the update and yes the germans were their own worse enemy all the way through the war!

What I'm interested in is, if the Me-262 or He-280 were fielded earlier due to the development of both the jet and more importantly the jet engines becoming strategic programs, a combat jet could have been put into mass production as early as 1943.

What I'm wondering is how early the allies would have been able to detect the entry of such a weapon into mass production? In the case of the Tiger tank I understand the allies only caught wind of it after the Russians reported a new heavy tank at the end of 1942.
Hello! One can only assume that until a jet was encountered in combat, then the secret would be out. The RAF did not know about the FW-190 until it entered combat, and then the RAF pilots thought that they were captured French Curtiss P-36s!! Cheers brustcan

User avatar
Latrans
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: 27 Dec 2004, 22:47
Location: Dallas, Texas

First U.S. Jet

#10

Post by Latrans » 09 Feb 2005, 02:24

The first U.S. jet plane was the Bell Airacomet, or XP-59. It was
camoflauged with a dummy propeller and shipped to California
for testing in 1942. It had 2 General Electric engines, but they only
propelled it to about 480 mph. About 50 of these were produced
and delivered to the U.S. Air Force in about 1945, I believe.

The Lockheed Shooting Star, or F-80 was first built in 1944 and went
into production at the end of World War 2. It did see combat in Korea,
one of them shooting down a Mig-15 -----which was probably better
and faster. The North American F-86 was the equal of the Mig 15.

User avatar
Ome_Joop
Member
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 May 2004, 16:56
Location: Noordwijk(erhout)

Re: How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

#11

Post by Ome_Joop » 09 Feb 2005, 03:11

brustcan wrote: Hello! The invention of the jet engine started with Whittle in England. In May 1936 a young physicist joined the Heinkel company. Pabst von Ohain came up with a jet engine, that was different from Whittle's and received a patent for it. With Heinkel's help, he came up with the He S 3A jet engine that powered the world's first jet aircraft, the He-178. It was only when the RLM saw the jet engine, that they started an official jet engine
programme, asking BMW, Bramo, and Junkers to set up their own programmes. Heinkel on his own started working on the world's first jet fighter, the He-280, using his own engines. The aircraft without it engines was used for gliding trials in Sept. 1940. The RLM had only seen the Me-262 wooden mock-up on Dec. 19, 1939, with a development contract in place for three prototypes on March 1, 1940. Heinkels aircraft flew on April 2, 1941. The Gloster-Whittle flew on May 15, 1941, and the Me-262 did not fly jet powered until July 18, 1942. England shared their jet engine
knowledge with the America, whereas in Germany, nothing was shared, with each aircarft manufacturer competing against each other! The reason that the He-280 did not enter service(even though an order had been placed for 100) was Heinkel was developing his engines with a very small staff. With delays in the engines, the RLM cancelled the He-280 in March 1943. With the Junkers Jumo engines available, the Me-262 had won the race. Because of the rivalry between Heinkel and Messerschmitt, most of the people of the Luftwaffe didn't even know that there was a jet. So one can't blame the allies for not knowing. Even to this day, the He-280 is forgotten..first plane designed as a jet fighter, first ejection seat, first German aircraft with a nose wheel etc. Cheers brustcan
Me-262 design began before the design of the He-280...so the He-280 couldn't be the first aircraft designed as a jetfighter!
Me-262 fall of 1938
He-280 fall of 1939

According to this source:
http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html

brustcan
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: 30 Mar 2004, 05:38
Location: canada

Re: How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

#12

Post by brustcan » 10 Feb 2005, 01:29

[quote="Ome_Joop"

Me-262 design began before the design of the He-280...so the He-280 couldn't be the first aircraft designed as a jetfighter!
Me-262 fall of 1938
He-280 fall of 1939

Acording to this source:
http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html[/quote]

Hello! There are a lot of old sources that continue to say that the RLM asked Messerschmitt to design a jet fighter in the ...FALL OF 1938! Only one company was producing a jet engine and that company was Heinkel. Von Ohain the jet engine creater in Germany, bench tested his first engine in March of 1938 producing 325 lbs thrust. This was followed by the He S 2 and finally with the He S 3A. The latter engine was tested under the belly of a He-118. The RLM was not even aware that Heinkel was building a jet engine! It was only after Ernst Udet came by the factory for a visit in late 1938, he was shown a special airframe (He-178) in which the new engine was to be installed. Heinkel was operating outside of the RLM using his own money for reseach. Through Udet, the RLM found out about "jet engines" and they were displeased that a aircraft manufacturer was building engines. The RLM then started an official jet engine programme with Junkers, BMW and Bramo getting contracts. Now that the RLM had a jet engine coming available in the future a conract for a similar
jet aircraft like Heinkels He-178, was placed on January 4, 1939 and
Messerschmitt came up with a single and twin engined layouts, and it was the twin engined wooden mockup that was inspected by the RLM on Dec. 19, 1939 with project number P.1065. It was not until March 1, 1940 that a development contract for three protypes was ordered, with the designation Me-262.Heinkel working without funding had plans ready in early June 1939. The He-280 without engines was already flying(towed into the air, and glided) when Messerschmitt
finally got the go ahead for three aircraft. Cheers brustcan

User avatar
Ome_Joop
Member
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 May 2004, 16:56
Location: Noordwijk(erhout)

Re: How early did the allies detect the Me-262 program

#13

Post by Ome_Joop » 10 Feb 2005, 02:36

brustcan wrote:[quote="Ome_Joop"

Me-262 design began before the design of the He-280...so the He-280 couldn't be the first aircraft designed as a jetfighter!
Me-262 fall of 1938
He-280 fall of 1939

Acording to this source:
http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html
Hello! There are a lot of old sources that continue to say that the RLM asked Messerschmitt to design a jet fighter in the ...FALL OF 1938! Only one company was producing a jet engine and that company was Heinkel. Von Ohain the jet engine creater in Germany, bench tested his first engine in March of 1938 producing 325 lbs thrust. This was followed by the He S 2 and finally with the He S 3A. The latter engine was tested under the belly of a He-118. The RLM was not even aware that Heinkel was building a jet engine! It was only after Ernst Udet came by the factory for a visit in late 1938, he was shown a special airframe (He-178) in which the new engine was to be installed. Heinkel was operating outside of the RLM using his own money for reseach. Through Udet, the RLM found out about "jet engines" and they were displeased that a aircraft manufacturer was building engines. The RLM then started an official jet engine programme with Junkers, BMW and Bramo getting contracts. Now that the RLM had a jet engine coming available in the future a conract for a similar
jet aircraft like Heinkels He-178, was placed on January 4, 1939 and
Messerschmitt came up with a single and twin engined layouts, and it was the twin engined wooden mockup that was inspected by the RLM on Dec. 19, 1939 with project number P.1065. It was not until March 1, 1940 that a development contract for three protypes was ordered, with the designation Me-262.Heinkel working without funding had plans ready in early June 1939. The He-280 without engines was already flying(towed into the air, and glided) when Messerschmitt
finally got the go ahead for three aircraft. Cheers brustcan[/quote]

It's true that maybe only 1 company was producing Jet Engines but that does not mean that no other company was developing jet (or better Gas Turbine) Engines!
BMW was also developing it's gas turbine engine the P3302 in 1938...messerschmitt started to design an aircraft for those engines wich later became the Me-262!

This is not impossible at all as the first real gas turbine engine was developed in 1872 by a man called Stolze !

User avatar
WOLF1
Member
Posts: 1037
Joined: 28 Sep 2004, 23:35
Location: Brentwood ,N. California

Burn Marks

#14

Post by WOLF1 » 10 Feb 2005, 23:50

I watched a program on the History Channel (like all HC programs I take with a large grain of salt) entitled “Secrets Weapons of the Luftwaffe WWII” they stated that Allied Recon. Aircraft started noting “Burn marks” on LW airfields in mid war. They attributed this to the ME262 program.

Wolf1

Huck
Member
Posts: 1188
Joined: 19 Jul 2004, 13:52
Location: Detroit

Re: Burn Marks

#15

Post by Huck » 11 Feb 2005, 02:47

The German gas turbine engine program was no secret. It was so extensive that basically encompassed the whole German industry. The amount of information exchange between the companies made impractical any attempt to hide it. Indeed, the program dates from prewar years. The Allied pilots learned late about Me-262, but this was not the case for Allies' intelligence.

When people say "ww2 German jet engines" they think mostly at Jumo 004, maybe BMW 003, but in reality the gas turbine engine program was enormous - they tried to produce powerplants for land, water, air vehicles but also for the industry (generators). The industry was enthusiastic about the gas turbine engine, because they knew already how to make compressors and turbines, they produced them in the past. That all of a sudden an engine could be made out of those components, made everybody happy. IC engines required specialized knowhow and the power output was limited, whereas in principle all industrial companies could make a turbojet and the output seemed limitless (in terms of SHP). In postwar years the same enthusiasm could be seen in the industry all over the world, many companies, that never produced engines before, begun producing gas turbine engines.

Post Reply

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”