Why Messerschmitt and not Heinkel 100 and FW 187 Falke ?

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Topspeed
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Why Messerschmitt and not Heinkel 100 and FW 187 Falke ?

Post by Topspeed » 15 Mar 2005 07:01

I am curious to know; why RLM preferred Me 109 and 110 over a pair Heinkel 100 and Focke Wulf 187 ?


http://www.simviation.com/fsdcbainfw187.htm

FW 187 Falke was 80 KM/H faster than Me 109 in September 1939 ! Heinkel 100 was even faster.

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KHeitmann
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Post by KHeitmann » 15 Mar 2005 08:53

I believe it was politics. Messerschmitt had been a early Nazi supporter from what I understand.

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Post by R.B.Weiss » 15 Mar 2005 10:50

KHeitmann wrote:I believe it was politics. Messerschmitt had been a early Nazi supporter from what I understand.
exactly , Wiily Messerschmitt had good connexions with the officials , also his plane was cheaper to construct

regards,

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Post by Topspeed » 15 Mar 2005 11:19

Is that garth as well ?

Did Bayerische Flugzeugverk pay Hitler ?

Mikko H.
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Post by Mikko H. » 15 Mar 2005 15:56

First of all, Heinkel He 100 didn't take part in the competition Messerschmitt won -- Heinkel He 112 did. And it seems that the claim the Messerschmitt design won because of politics originates from the Heinkel camp, so the claim should be taken with a large dose of salt.

I find Joe Baugher's articles informative:

Heinkel He 100:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/b ... he100.html

Heinkel He 112:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/b ... he112.html

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 15 Mar 2005 17:33

Heinkel vs. Messerschmitt competition has been discussed here earlier too.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... einkel+100

Mikko H thanks for the swell links.

- Barbarossa Isegrim -
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Post by - Barbarossa Isegrim - » 17 Mar 2005 11:13

Actually, Mtt won against all odds - he didn`t have experience with fighters, therefore he come with something completely new and innovative, he had nothing to loose. The others come up with more orthodox designs. And as for his backwind - Erhard Milch personally hated Messerschmitt as he lost some friend/relative when a Mtt aircraft had an accident. The Me 109 was cheaper, simplier to build and faster than the competition, and the pilot`s began to like it, Ersnt Udet was especially fond of it.

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Post by brustcan » 18 Mar 2005 06:04

Mikko H. wrote:First of all, Heinkel He 100 didn't take part in the competition Messerschmitt won -- Heinkel He 112 did. And it seems that the claim the Messerschmitt design won because of politics originates from the Heinkel camp, so the claim should be taken with a large dose of salt. [/url]
Hello! The Heinkel 112V1 to V6 called series "A" competed against the early BF-109V1 series. Heinkel kept doing design changes with the prototypes, which the RLM noticed, and the final version of the He-112V9 that flew in the summer of 1937 was state of the art in fighter design, and was superior to the BF-109B! The V9 "B" series had hardly anything in common with the earlier prototypes! If Heinkel had come up with the "B' He-112, he would have won the competition. Messerschmitt won because,
the BF-109 was easier, and cheaper to build, his Augsburg plant was ready to roll series production(Heinkel was burdened with bomber contracts), and in November 1936 with Herman Wurster at the controls, put the BF-109 through 23 left hand spins, followed by 21 right spins, and ended in a near vertical dive from 23,000ft. The Heinkel pilot decided not to follow! The RLM received intelligence reports that Supermarine received a production order for 310 Spitfires, the result was Messerschmitt was given series production order. Heinkel was disappointed in having lost the figher order to Messerschmitt. Using his own money, he decided to build a fighter that was better and faster than the BF-109. He came up with the He-100, which used only 960 individual parts, and 13,300 rivets(the He-112--2,885 individual parts, 26,864 rivets!) It was faster than the standard BF-109, but the Luftwaffe was committed to BF-109 production, and no orders were placed. At this time Heinkel already had his hands full with the He-177 prototypes. Cheers brustcan.

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Post by Martyn R » 19 Mar 2005 00:29

Mikko H. wrote:First of all, Heinkel He 100 didn't take part in the competition Messerschmitt won -- Heinkel He 112 did. And it seems that the claim the Messerschmitt design won because of politics originates from the Heinkel camp, so the claim should be taken with a large dose of salt.

I find Joe Baugher's articles informative:

Heinkel He 100:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/b ... he100.html

Heinkel He 112:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/b ... he112.html
I agree with the usefulness of the Joe Baugher's articles!

If seems reasonably sensible that the lack of suitable engines was the killer issue! It does ponder the question that if enough DB 601 engines had been available or another engine of similar performance had been available whether HE100 would have entered production in limited number for foriegn sales. Given its performance it would have been a useful addition to the strength of other Axis air forces as Joe Baugher also explains.

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Post by Topspeed » 19 Mar 2005 06:06

- Barbarossa Isegrim - wrote: The Me 109 was cheaper, simplier to build and faster than the competition, and the pilot`s began to like it, Ersnt Udet was especially fond of it.
Wonder if this was because it had leading edge slats and some other new features ?

Remarkable about He-100 was that it flew 667 km/h with just 1175 hp engine. It even beat the standard F8-F Baercat which is the fastest piston engined aircraft in the universe that we know of. :wink:

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Re: Why Messerschmitt and not Heinkel 100 and FW 187 Falke ?

Post by Mitchl WT » 21 Nov 2017 03:49

It would be more sensible that an aircraft with more firepower and armament would be chosen over one with less armament. The He 100 had incredible speed, but was very small, resulting in manufacturers not finding a way to place small bombs on it. The 109 however, had amazing firepower, with twice the type of armament of the 100. The FW 187 had originally had the role of a heavy fighter, but the major air forces could not assign it a role. The FW 187 was turned down because it was not equipped with DB601's by 1939. It was overtaken by the Bf 110. The 187 can reach speeds up to 400mph flat, and could dive access of 500+. This would be with the DbB601's. The 187 would be very useful with fighter sweeps over the RAF in 1944-5. RAF in 1944-5. Göring thought that the Bf 110 could have fulfilled multiple roles in missions, and turned down the Focke-Wulf 187.

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Re: Why Messerschmitt and not Heinkel 100 and FW 187 Falke ?

Post by Topspeed » 09 Mar 2021 07:42

Mitchl WT wrote:
21 Nov 2017 03:49
It would be more sensible that an aircraft with more firepower and armament would be chosen over one with less armament. The He 100 had incredible speed, but was very small, resulting in manufacturers not finding a way to place small bombs on it. The 109 however, had amazing firepower, with twice the type of armament of the 100. The FW 187 had originally had the role of a heavy fighter, but the major air forces could not assign it a role. The FW 187 was turned down because it was not equipped with DB601's by 1939. It was overtaken by the Bf 110. The 187 can reach speeds up to 400mph flat, and could dive access of 500+. This would be with the DbB601's. The 187 would be very useful with fighter sweeps over the RAF in 1944-5. RAF in 1944-5. Göring thought that the Bf 110 could have fulfilled multiple roles in missions, and turned down the Focke-Wulf 187.

Would FW 187 have made a difference ?

Focke-Wulf_Fw_187_(15083509087).jpg
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