Messerschmitt 109 - myths and facts - article now out

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 29 Mar 2005 15:15

Grendel-B wrote: You don't really mean experiences with SCALE MODEL planes equal real plane's behaviour? Oh mercy. Those are two completely different things. Aerodynamics, speeds and equipment is different. They're no way comparable to the real thing.
I hope you watched The Flight of the Phoenix ( Aaavikkolento ) recently ! :lol: :lol: :lol:
( If not, then see this remake of it as a trailer: http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/fligh ... ler_l.html )

Here is the "NASA-link" I talked about regarding scale realism:

http://www.scaleaero.com/maneuver_realism_speed4.htm


The models I fly ( 1/12 scale ) do 80-100 mph ( equals 300-350 mph of the original ). These models according to the rules have only limited prop size and limited RPM-range to ensure safety of the competitors. They could fly also 130+ mph..which is very tough an experience with a small model, that tends to disappear into the clouds very rapidly.

1/4 scale when maneuvering originals planes 450 MPH should do 225 MPH ( 362 km/h ).

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Scale engines:

http://www.enginehistory.org/model_engines.htm ( Merlin is pretty cool )


And please don't tell this doesn't look realistic:

http://www.mfca.de/htm/190mod3.htm

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Post by Von Schadewald » 29 Mar 2005 19:09

How would the Bf109Z
http://www.luft46.com/mess/me109z.html
have compared to the Twin Mustang in a one on one fight? Or not much in it?
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Post by Von Schadewald » 29 Mar 2005 19:29

Since this is about Me109 myths, here's the cover of "2000AD" comic from 1982 depicting a squadron of Me 109s that get caught in a time warp & are transferred from 1942 Stalingrad to 2142 New York!
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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 29 Mar 2005 19:40

Von Schadewald wrote:How would the Bf109Z
have compared to the Twin Mustang in a one on one fight ?
Since the p-82 was totally a new aircraft and the twins had very little resemblance with P-51D ( rather a postwar P-51H ) there could not have been much comparison to start with. I think P-82 was developement on the basis of a 109Z.

H-model Mustang was longer fusewise. Had thinner wingfoil and more narrower cross section of the fuse...and much much lighter than a P-51D. Wings were also straight and shorter.

Standard P-51H flew 800 km/h...last 109 K-4 went 725 km/h tops.

Clearly 109Z had better power to weight ratio than a P-82, but still...it is also luck and instinct whole battle stuff..human factor is more than 50%.

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Post by Uncle Joe » 30 Mar 2005 13:46

Topspeed wrote:
Uncle Joe wrote:
Topspeed wrote:I have had the book for 15 years and it is right beside me. Read all of it and you'll see the "light".
Why should I for it is obvious to anyone with brains that it is you who need to read the book again. Raunio´s thesis for the high control forces is avoiding of overstressing the structure in dive recoveries and manoeuvres (nothing to do with accelerated stall). He never mentions accelerated stall in this context. Never!

If your only reply to a quote from the official test report is a reference to a NASA site most suitable for juveniles, get ready for the men in white coats. Your delusions may lead to Lapinlahti or Harjamäki.
I think this text without any reference to reality will get you banned from here. I am sorry to say that.

I am also not talking about accelerated stall....just stalls during combat and in high speed turns.
And what is the difference between accelerated stall and "stalls in high speed turns"? They are one and the same, Toppy!

And what Raunio speculated on the reasons of stick forces was pure speculation on his part. On the other hand, Kokko does not speculate.

And while Kokko makes no mention of the Mustang (did I ever claim he did?), it is obvious that when the slats deploy during tight turn the Mustang is already flicking uncontrollable out of the turn, i.e. 109 pilot has still control left.

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Enblem a young eagle !

Post by Topspeed » 30 Mar 2005 18:29

I think 34th squadron enblem sums up the spirit of Me 109 !

A tough fighter with almost no wings. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Von Schadewald » 31 Mar 2005 21:52

Yes, Eric Brown's "Wings of the Luftwaffe" is a (flawed?) classic. Is there any aircraft he didn't fly?!
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Post by Oberst_Emann » 01 Apr 2005 02:21

Arado Ar234, Me-109G, Heinkel He177, Heinkel He162, Me262, Junkers Ju488 (?)

My oh my!

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Post by Von Schadewald » 01 Apr 2005 02:40

Actually it's meant to be a Fw 200 Condor, not a "Ju 488"! The Condor Brown tested had been Himmler's personal transport.

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Re: Bf 109

Post by Cantankerous » 13 Sep 2023 21:43

Topspeed wrote:
29 Mar 2005 19:40
Von Schadewald wrote:How would the Bf109Z
have compared to the Twin Mustang in a one on one fight ?
Since the p-82 was totally a new aircraft and the twins had very little resemblance with P-51D ( rather a postwar P-51H ) there could not have been much comparison to start with. I think P-82 was developement on the basis of a 109Z.
The Me 109Z was designed to be a fast bomber, whereas the P-82 Twin Mustang was an escort fighter like the P-51D and Convair XP-81. The Me 109Z was conceived for the Schnellstbomber competition of late 1942 along with the twin-fuselage Me 309Z, but lost out to the Dornier Do 335. Whether Messerschmitt would found it convenient to recycle derelict and/or downed Bf 109Es and Bf 109Fs to use in the construction of an Me 109Z airframe had the Me 109Z been selected over the Do 335 and the rival EF 109, EF 110, EF 111, and EF 112 designs from Junkers is worth pondering.

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