German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

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Andrew Arthy
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Andrew Arthy » 28 Dec 2021 00:04

Simon Gunson wrote:
24 Dec 2021 11:10

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Francis these two POW reports from Kew PRO which link a bomb called 76 Zentner with an He177 having an enlarged bomb bay.

This report SRA. 4450 notes 76 Zentner was a bomb that could destroy a whole town "so there wasn't a soul left there."

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SRA. 4394 links 76 Zentner with a 177 which had a specially enlarged bomb bay:

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Pilot Peter Brill revealed in 2005 that these modified aircraft were called AK177 and they had contra rotating four blade propellers, giving them improved fuel range and better ceilings.
Firstly, these are not interrogation reports, they are secret recordings of German airmen prisoners, hence the abbreviation S.R.A. These secret recordings are full of soldier gossip, and should not be used as a source unless you have other, more reliable evidence to confirm what they state.

Secondly, they do not link the 76 Zentner with the He 177. There are two separate conversations in S.R.A. 4394, one about the He 177, and another about 76 Zentner.

Thirdly, I can see no mention whatsoever of 76 Zentner in S.R.A. 4450 (I have a copy of the entire report, rather than just the snippet you posted). The mention of destroying a town is actually a reference to the British and Americans destroying a German town with gas if the Germans ever dared to use liquid air (flüssige Luft in the German version of the transcription). The second half of the report, which you don't show in your post, is the Flak gunner prisoner saying that this liquid air was apparently already being used by German anti-aircraft defences in the Ruhr. I'm not sure how you take S.R.A. 4450 to be evidence of 76 Zentner being a German bomb able to destroy an entire town.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by T. A. Gardner » 28 Dec 2021 02:58

I also see that the individuals in these reports are all junior enlisted (the equivalent of a lance corporal, two sergeants, and a private). This says to me that they're talking pure smack based on rumor and speculation rather than expert knowledge about some system.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Mikko H. » 28 Dec 2021 08:11

Simon Gunson wrote:
26 Dec 2021 07:15

Messerschmitt were working on a swept wing version of the Me.263 (proposed by Junkers , called the Me.247. This Variant bore uncanny resemblence to the Tupelov Tu95 Bear which it undoubtedly inspired

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This "Me 247" is a modeller's what-if fantasy, not a real project.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Simon Gunson » 03 Jan 2022 02:15

sagallacci wrote:
19 Jul 2009 05:57
Going back to the original thread for a sec.
My mention of the structural diagram of the He177 simply illustrates that there is simply nothing to the notion that He177V38 "must" have been modified for an atomic bomb, or for that matter, any over-size ordinance. The stripped out belly is just that. A fuel tank pallet or even simply a light-weight fairing could have easily been put in in place of the usual divided bomb bay structure, especially if the machine was being used for other systems testing (some sources suggest radar or other electronic stuff) and they simply wanted to save some weight to improve the beast's mileage...
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On the contrary former He177 pilot Peter Brill who passed away Feb 2013 revealed in April 2005 from Sabadel in Spain that nine He177 were modified with enormous bomb bays for a mission to bomb New York, Four of these modified He177 which he called AK177 were stored ready for the mission at Sprottau under camouflage netting. Peter was one of six pilots trained to fly a one way bombing mission to attack New York.

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The standard He177 has three bomb bays with interior dimensions of 1.5m W x 7.5m L x 0.9m H.
(In the He277 the bomb bay is widened to 1,9m W.)

source: William Green, Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft Volume Nine of 1967 -- repeated in Kay & Smith's 2002 German Aircraft of the Second World War.

IN the "enlarged" bomb bay of the V38, the width & height are unbroken for a length of 4.6m. bomb bay doors form two panels either side of which, one folds inwards and the other outwards. with the forward bomb bay devoted to a single large bomb called 76 Zentner, the 2.9m L rear bomb bay is available for fuel storage.

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Meanwhile aircraft W.Nr. 550002 KM+TB He 177 V38: First flew on 15 December at Brandenburg piloted by Peter, transfered to E-Stelle Tarnewitz on 27 April 1944, flown there as a standard A-5.
W.Nr. 550001 to 550006 were built at Heinkel (HWO) Oranienburg.

when captured, German prisoners falsely advised V38 was one of three He177 A-7 aircraft for export to Japan.

AK177 or Ju177 hybrid?

However in a conference convened by RLM, between Heinkel, Messerschmitt & Junkers January 1944, it was agreed to develop a hybrid He-177 with wings from the Me264, using paired DB603 engines clutched to a single shaft as the DB 613 producing 3800hp.(Brill claimed engines could be clutched and shut fown in flight)
This hybrid was dubbed the "Ju177 with wings attached from the Me264. it was projected to have the following specifications:

He 177 /”Ju”-177
Crew: 5
Powerplant: 2*DB 613
Output(each): 3,800hp
Wing Span: 31.50m (103 ft 8in)
Weight (loaded): 34.700 kg (76.500 lb) / Standard He177: circa 27,000 kg (59,500 lb)
Max Speed*: 425 km/h (264 mph)
Ceiling: 8.000m (26,247 ft)
Range: 4.600 km (2.858 miles)
Armament
Nose (lower): 1*FDL 131Z
Dorsal(fwd): 1* FDL 151Z
Dorsal(aft): -
Ventral: 1* WL 131Z
Tail: 1*HL 131V
source: Heinkel He.177, 277, 274" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel

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Source: Page 96-98 from "Heinkel He.177, 277, 274" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel (Airlife Publishing Ltd.) In "Heinkel 177-277-274" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel, the highest
bombload for the He 277 was given as 5,600 kg (in the version with a fuselage width
of 1,750 mm), resulting in a range of 8,600 km. For the maximum range of 11,100 km,
bombload reduced to 3,000 kg.

Adding wings from the Me264 reduced speed by 5% and provided nine extra fuel tanks per wing with 9740kg of fuel previously unavailable to a standard He177 A-5. Normally , the He177 had capacity for 10,400 Litres, discounting auxiliary fuel tanks. ie 7,665kg fuel was standard, so attaching wings from the Me264 more than doubled fuel tankage to 17,405kg (23,615 Litres).

The enlarged bomb bay was intended for a bomb called the 76 Zentner. A 1943 CSDIC prisoner of War report SRA 4394 links the 76 Zentner with a He177 that had an enlarged bomb bay. SRA 4394 also notes the aircraft was waiting for the engine. CSDIC reports come from internment camps with hidden microphones.

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Last edited by Simon Gunson on 03 Jan 2022 02:33, edited 1 time in total.

Simon Gunson
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Simon Gunson » 03 Jan 2022 02:44

Michael Kenny wrote:
03 Jan 2022 02:32
I note this post that make very serious claims that sources are being manipulated and misrepresented has not been addressed.


Secondly, they do not link the 76 Zentner with the He 177. There are two separate conversations in S.R.A. 4394, one about the He 177, and another about 76 Zentner...

Thirdly, I can see no mention whatsoever of 76 Zentner in S.R.A. 4450

Why is that?
Is it because you know you are being dishonest and having no defence your only option is to hope it will be forgotten?


You offer no credible explanation for the 76 Zentner elsewhere described as a bomb able to destroy a whole town... "until there wasn't a soul left there."

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First when I called these"interrogation reports it was for want of a better description . I fully acknoledge the acronym CSDIC always relates to intelligence gathered from POWs by use of hidden microphones.

You seem unable to debate the topic without launching into the histronics of personal abuse? which speaks more about your judgement than mine.
I do not see why i should address abusive accusations. unless that is the topic of this thread? The topic in case you forgot is the;


German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

when you become apoplectic does it cut off blood supply to your head, just curious?

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Jan 2022 05:48

The problem with any of these aircraft, at least the halfway realistic ones, is none of them can fly fast enough, or high enough, to escape a nuclear device when it detonates. The US had to specially lighten and modify B-29's for nuclear delivery that could drop the bomb from well over 30,000 feet and using a special maneuver and maximum power, dive and run from the bomb before it detonated.
The aircraft available to the Germans can't match this.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Jan 2022 05:55

Simon Gunson wrote:
03 Jan 2022 02:44

You offer no credible explanation for the 76 Zentner elsewhere described as a bomb able to destroy a whole town... "until there wasn't a soul left there."

First when I called these"interrogation reports it was for want of a better description . I fully acknoledge the acronym CSDIC always relates to intelligence gathered from POWs by use of hidden microphones.
I gave a reasonable explanation in post 152, but to elaborate:

You have three POW, one a lance corporal who is a radio operator on an aircraft, a junior sergeant who is an aerial gunner, and the third a private who is most like the loader on an antiaircraft gun discussing something after being captured. None of these three probably know squat about what they're discussing other than possibly second or third hand something they heard.

The second report that's shown is a similar discussion between a junior sergeant aircraft radio operator and a corporal who is an aircraft mechanic making similar claims, most likely heard second or third hand too.

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Ironmachine » 03 Jan 2022 08:31

Simon Gunson wrote:Peter was one of six pilots trained to fly a one way bombing mission to attack New York.
And unsurprisingly Peter Brill was the only one of the six that survived the war.

Denniss
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Denniss » 03 Jan 2022 12:21

This AK177 version of the He 177 is probably just another fake like his Ju 390 flying in 1942 with a close-up photo made from an allied convoy

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by David Thompson » 10 Jan 2022 05:46

Two uncivil posts from Michael Kenny were removed, pursuant to the forum rules.

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