German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

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Ome_Joop
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Ome_Joop » 06 May 2009 08:42

We shouldn't exaggerate exactly how many aircraft that meant Only 34 MkIs, 46 MkIIs, and 80 MkIIs were built before the MkV arrived in service with the first of those nearly two thousand.
Indeed we shouldn't exaggerate...
Prototype = 2
Mk I = 34
Mk II = 46
Mk III = 80
Mk IV = 33
Mk IVa = 7
Mk V = 1466
Mk VI = Projected only
Mk VII = 146

Total built = 1814
which WAS seven months before the planned completion of the Air Ministry's plans The EARLIEST point they planned to go to war....

and still it took to 1941 to be solved (not even talking about the problems during that time).
Like i said before mandate seems to forgot about it. When you plan to go to war you try atleast to be prepared, specially when you know what is lacking.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 May 2009 13:49

O-J
Mk V = 1466
Total built = 1814
You're quite correct - I was reading two sentences staggered across a photograph at 2 AM :lol: The point remains, however, that if not for the Bomber Command moratorium imposed by Cabinet...those 1466 "properly" equiped Whitleys would have been coming into service before the war began.
Like i said before mandate seems to forgot about it. When you plan to go to war you try atleast to be prepared, specially when you know what is lacking
This is what the Air Staff had done - if you read The Paladins... it was government that got in the way...or more specifically the British government's desire to spend as little as possible that was commensurate with having an RAF that could actually reach some part of Germany. The Air Plan gave them a lot to do in four years with a minimum amount of money; not the lavish spending Hitler let the RLM have to build the German aviation industry and the LW. If it hadn't been for the moratorium/government intervention, then Bomber Command - in aircraft, organisation and capacity - would have as of the end of August 1939 been capable of attacking the target options Cabinet selected in 1935 by day or by night...and with bombs not leaflets...

...apart of course from factors NOT under the Air Staff's control, like the LW coming in the other direction :lol: OR the very same Cabinet insisting they spend an unfortunate amount of time dropping glorified bogroll over Germany...

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by sagallacci » 06 Jul 2009 05:32

Just got the new Smith and Creek book on the He177 and found out an important point that puts the tale of the atomic modification to rest.
Though it doesn't appear to discuss the particular machine, the book does have original German structural diagrams of the He177 fuselage. And guess what? The full width and length bomb bay area was the basic structure. The bomb bay "keel" was not a structural element, rather it was an add-on that carried the bomb shackles and inner bomb bay doors. It could be interchanged with a pallet for extra fuel tankage.
So, finding a '177 without the normal segmented bomb bay hardware inside is no big deal. Certainly not a special configuration that "must" mean a special- read atomic- weapon carrier.

stellung
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by stellung » 07 Jul 2009 03:40

Either outright dismissal or no big deal? Hardly evidence. An atomic bomb test was witnessed from the air in Germany during the war. Every particular of the detonation concerning the color, size and effects on the aircraft were consistent with post-war atomic tests. Since the US Navy was attached both to the Manhattan Project and the Alsos Mission, the report was issued by the Navy. The information is given a B-1 rating. B for usually reliable and 1 for 'confirmed by other sources.' The test occurred and was confirmed by other sources.

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LWD
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by LWD » 07 Jul 2009 13:09

stellung wrote:.... An atomic bomb test was witnessed from the air in Germany during the war. Every particular of the detonation concerning the color, size and effects on the aircraft were consistent with post-war atomic tests. Since the US Navy was attached both to the Manhattan Project and the Alsos Mission, the report was issued by the Navy. The information is given a B-1 rating. B for usually reliable and 1 for 'confirmed by other sources.' The test occurred and was confirmed by other sources.
Then you shouldn't have any trouble posting reliable references.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Jul 2009 14:39

Every particular of the detonation concerning the color, size and effects on the aircraft were consistent with post-war atomic tests.
So? So was Port Chicago - leading to occasional conspiracy theories - and it was DEFINITELY a conventional explosion...

stellung
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by stellung » 08 Jul 2009 03:19

The location of the document at NARA is RG 38, Entry 98 C, Box 9. Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb. One document carries a date of 19 August 1945. It is stamped Top Secret. It was issued by:
Headquarters
AIR P/W INTERROGATION UNIT
United States Strategic Air Forces in Europe
A.P.W.I.U. (Ninth Air Force)96/1945 APO 696, U S Army


The witness was a man named ZINSSER, a Flak rocket expert. In the beginning of October, 1944, he was in an aircraft flying from Ludwigslust and was about 12 to 15 kilometers from an atomic bomb test station.

It is included with a later document:

ISSUED BY THE INTELLIGENCE DIVISION
OFFICE OF CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS
NAVY DEPARTMENT
INTELLIGENCE REPORT

This is also stamped Top Secret and dated 24 January 1946.
The source is given as: OFFICIAL - BRITISH/U.S.
This is where the evaluation code B-1 appears. It indicates the source is usually reliable and the event was confirmed by other sources.


I have found such documents to be succinct and precise. The title alone provides the necessary information.

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Ironmachine » 08 Jul 2009 07:06

Well, no, the title alone does not provide the necessary information.
If such documents are succinct and precise, then you will have no problem providing the pertinent quotes (or the whole documents) to see if there is anything significant in them.

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Ironmachine » 08 Jul 2009 08:12

Meanwhile, if anyone is interested, Zinsser's story is available on line at http://www.thewebfairy.com/missilegate/ ... apter1.htm
His affidavit is contained in a military intelligence report of August 19, 1945, roll number A1007, filmed in 1973 at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. Zinsser's statement is found on the last page of the report:

A man named ZINSSER, a Flak rocket expert, mentioned what he noticed one day: In the beginning of Oct, 1944 I flew from Ludwigslust (south of Lubeck), about 12 to 15 km from an atomic bomb test station, when I noticed a strong, bright illumination of the whole atmosphere, lasting about 2 seconds.

The clearly visible pressure wave escaped the approaching and following cloud formed by the explosion. This wave had a diameter of about 1 km when it became visible and the color of the cloud changed frequently. It became dotted after a short period of darkness with all sorts of light spots, which were, in contrast to normal explosions, of a pale blue color.

After about 10 seconds the sharp outlines of the explosion cloud disappeared, then the cloud began to take on a lighter color against the sky covered with a gray overcast. The diameter of the still visible pressure wave was at least 9000 meters while remaining visible for at least 15 seconds.

Personal observations of the colors of the explosion cloud found an almost blue-violet shade. During this manifestation reddish-colored rims were to be seen, changing to a dirty-like shade in very rapid succession.

The combustion was lightly felt from my observation plane in the form of pulling and pushing.

About one hour later I started with an He 111 from the A/D24 at Ludwigslust and flew in an easterly direction. Shortly after the start I passed through the almost complete overcast (between 3000 and 4000 meter altitude). A cloud shaped like a mushroom with turbulent, billowing sections (at about 7000 meter altitude) stood, without any seeming connections, over the spot where the explosion took place. Strong electrical disturbances and the impossibility to continue radio communication as by lightning, turned up.

Because of the P-38s operating in the area Wittenberg-Mersburg 1 had to turn to the north but observed a better visibility at the bottom of the cloud where the explosion occured (sic). Note: It does not seem very clear to me why these experiments took place in such crowded areas.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Jul 2009 11:46

Every particular of the detonation concerning the color, size and effects on the aircraft were consistent with post-war atomic tests.
So? So was Port Chicago - leading to occasional conspiracy theories - and it was DEFINITELY a conventional explosion...
Stellung, deal with the above objection instead of ignoring it. It's not going to go away. There are MANY instances of super-large conventional explosions creating visible effects very similar if not identical to atomic bombs. IIRC the Halifax munitions explosion in WWI was another.

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LWD
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by LWD » 09 Jul 2009 12:47

Indeed I've seen at least one mushroom cloud that apparently was formed naturally. I would think he would also comment on the effects of the shock wave if he were flying that close to an atomic blast or indeed even a large conventional blast.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Jul 2009 13:13

A man named ZINSSER, a Flak rocket expert, mentioned what he noticed one day: In the beginning of Oct, 1944 I flew from Ludwigslust (south of Lubeck), about 12 to 15 km from an atomic bomb test station, when I noticed a strong, bright illumination of the whole atmosphere, lasting about 2 seconds.
LWD, I would have thought the author's account would have paid some attention to the fact that...if this was an atomic explosion...his pilot would have gone blind...

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Ironmachine » 09 Jul 2009 17:22

LWD wrote:Indeed I've seen at least one mushroom cloud that apparently was formed naturally.
Indeed. Any kind of explosion, if large enough, would create a mushroom cloud.
phylo_roadking wrote:LWD, I would have thought the author's account would have paid some attention to the fact that...if this was an atomic explosion...his pilot would have gone blind...
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story... :lol:

I have already posted Zinsser's story, which I find far from reliable (to put it midly)... I would like that stellung post at least the relevant parts of that
later document:
ISSUED BY THE INTELLIGENCE DIVISION
OFFICE OF CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS
NAVY DEPARTMENT
INTELLIGENCE REPORT
to see if there is something of value there.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Jul 2009 19:32

Any kind of explosion, if large enough, would create a mushroom cloud.
...or small. A "mushroom cloud" after all is debris/smoke being lifted by hot air from an explosion, any explosion...then starting roil and fill the head of cloud as the air at the top starts to cool...the science behind the FX guys using dirty oil and diesel for explosions in war films :lol: For a mushroom cloud you just need very fine particulate matter - soil, crushed brick, burnt material in smoke like the graphite in old oil - and hot air; most explosions take care of both these requirements themselves! 8O

EDIT: and of course - the lighter/smaller the particulate matter...the cooler the "hot" air needs to be to achieve the same effect :wink: Hence smoke behaving better than hard material pulverized.

kriegsmarine221
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by kriegsmarine221 » 10 Jul 2009 09:27

some explosions would be not capable at all of creating a mushroom cloud, smaller ones just create a sort of fireball or something like that, you need something like 5 tonnes of TNT to create a proper mushroom cloud.

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