German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

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phylo_roadking
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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Jul 2009 02:24

The other document I reference refers to a test in Germany in 1944.
...and as you are aware, recent scientific testing at the proposed sites for that has proved that it did NOT occur.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by LWD » 21 Jul 2009 13:59

stellung wrote:Your assumption is incorrect. A secret interrogation facility in the United States was told by a German scientist before VE day that "we are enriching uranium."
what facility? What scientist? Where did you get this info? Just because they are enriching uranium it doesn't mean that they were anywhere near making a bomb by the way.
The other document I reference refers to a test in Germany in 1944. It was Top Secret. It was not declassified for many years.
What was the document title?

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Re:

Post by HenryS » 26 Feb 2010 22:53

Simon Gunson wrote:
To get the material for a 'dirty' atomic bomb, you need a working nuclear reactor.
The germans didn't have one, so no 'dirty' bomb.
Not true Redcoat. That may be so for the Plutonium bomb but not a Uranium bomb.

Fritz Houtermans was pushing for a Plutonium bomb and the Leipzeig sphere appears to have been an attempt to irridate U238 with neutrons from radium to breed plutonium. Heavy water was important as a moderator for a reactor, thus the Norwegian Voermark plant was part of the Plutonium project.

On the other hand a different team went down the "right track" of developing the uranium gaseous centrifuge under Dr Paul Harteck and Dr Max von Ardenne. Professor Kurt Diebner used the uranium to develop a uranium A-bomb for Heerswaffenamt Forschungstelle E.

Following July 1944's bomb plot against Hitler, Himmler took control of Heerswaffenamt.

My own researches indicate that Dr Erich Bagge developed the gaseous uranium centrifuge in 1942 and by April 1944 Nazi Germany put Uranium centrifuges into large scale production.

Professor Kurt Diebner developed the Nazi Uranium A-bomb program. Dr Werner Heisenburg was involved with nuclear fission reactors and failed attempts to breed Plutonium. These scientists were involved with unrelated projects.

Building a centrifuge to enrich uranium does not require a reactor. One takes Uranium oxide (Yellow cake) and mixes this with hydroflouric acid to make a gaseous compound called Uranium hexaflouride. One starts with a hollow, cylindrical rotor. Fill it with gaseous uranium. At the rotor's bottom, use pulsating magnetic fields (much like those of an electric motor) to spin it fast enough to throw the heavier U-238 toward the wall, letting the U-235 accumulate near the center. Slightly heating the bottom of the gaseous mix would produce currents that would tend to move the U-238 down and the U-235 up, where scoops could gather the isotopes. That is why they are sometimes called isotope sluces. germany developed this from 1942.

I don't accept that the bombs at Rugen Island and Ohrdruf concentration camps were dirty bombs. Eye witnesses to the Ohrdruf blast noted a flash at night so bright that they could read a newspaper. the victims were burned as was typical of nuclear blast. That is not the tell tale of a dirty bomb.

It's a pity my reply to Peter Evans at LEMB was not also published here. The interesting point is that the Ju-287V1 bomber had the forward fuselage from an He-177 and tail from a Ju-388. The bomb bay however was not that of a typical He-177, but apparently had exactly the same dimensions as the V38 aircraft converted at letov in 1942 to be a nuclear bomber.

Horst Lommel's book on the Ju-287 does not repudiate claims about the purpose of the V38 Grief. Instead it deepens the mystery and poses a new question whether the Ju-287 was intended as a fast nuclear bomber to stike London ?

After all if as self evident the Ju-287 builders were trying to speed production with off the shelf parts from existing aircraft and make the Ju-287 a snap to fit, aircraft, then why not just use a standard He-177 fuselage with standard bomb bay ?

Why go to the extra effort of a Grief fuselage with an extra large bomb bay ?

German writer Friedrich Georg supplies 6 good pictures of this bomber is his fist book Hitlers Siegeswaffen Band 1 or in English Hitler''s Miracle Weapons. He also gives a detailed description of the aircraft (pages 50-58 in the German edition).

Also, writers/researchers Edgar Mayer and Thomas Mehner explain two other ways to enrich uranium. Both use klystron technology. The first, a special betatron is able to enrich uranium to U-235. The second method involves a synchrotron. With this method they were simply able to manufacture suitable nuclear material. In fact, the Germans were swimming in fissionable material, so much so that they ended up supplying nuclear material for their own uses but they also supplied the Japanese and the Americans (via U-234) with fissionable material.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 26 Feb 2010 23:07

With this method they were simply able to manufacture suitable nuclear material. In fact, the Germans were swimming in fissionable material, so much so that they ended up supplying nuclear material for their own uses but they also supplied the Japanese and the Americans (via U-234) with fissionable material.
...except as we know from the Heisenberg-Bohr meeting, they got the estimation of the amount needed to achieve criticality totally wrong and they reckoned they needed FAR more...! So it's a dead end to say they had the material, therefore...

...when they didn't actually know what to do with what they had :wink:

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by f-wolf » 27 Feb 2010 02:42

Did the Nazis Build an Atomic Bomb?

http://www.unmuseum.org/nbomb.htm


GERMANY AND THE ATOM BOMB

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1127.htm

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 27 Feb 2010 02:50

F-wolf, we've already totally discredited the Ohrdruf legend hereon another thread. There were a set of investigations carried out by the Federal government - and NO fission byproducts dating to the WWII period were found there; the only radioactive isotpes found could be precisely dated (by their rate of decay) to the atmospoheric tests of the 1950s and early '60s.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by stellung » 27 Feb 2010 04:12

Two individuals from Hitler's nonexistant nuclear project won the Stalin Prize, First Class for their assistance with the Russian atomic bomb project. An OSS document states precisely a list Of German "Experts on Atomic Fission." How could these men be considered experts in anything?

The modified bomber is a distinct possibility.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by HenryS » 27 Feb 2010 05:37

phylo_roadking wrote:
With this method they were simply able to manufacture suitable nuclear material. In fact, the Germans were swimming in fissionable material, so much so that they ended up supplying nuclear material for their own uses but they also supplied the Japanese and the Americans (via U-234) with fissionable material.
...except as we know from the Heisenberg-Bohr meeting, they got the estimation of the amount needed to achieve criticality totally wrong and they reckoned they needed FAR more...! So it's a dead end to say they had the material, therefore...

...when they didn't actually know what to do with what they had :wink:
This is a common misconception. In Heisenberg's War, a whole chapter if not more is devoted to "finding critical mass". The Germans never cared about critical mass. Only someone who did not have enough uranium 235 or plutonium or know at least one of the four or five ways to detonate a sub-critical mass nuclear explosion (see Edgar Mayer/Thomas Mehenr Die Atombombe und das Dritte Reich, pages 251-256 titled"Ist eine 100-g-Atomwaffe realisierbar?") or possessed red mercury (which they had) see Nick Cook's The Hunt for Zero Point and his retelling of the work of Igor Witkowski, would care enough to calculate. Alternatively, Dr. Friedrich Lachner came up with an "implosion" (his word) method for detonating nuclear material. His method is almost identical to the method used on "the American" plutonium bomb. It involves bringing together chunks of fissionable material which together, and together with a neutron source, would detonate. Lachner only guessed at critical mass since the concept was not worth worrying about for the Germans.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by HenryS » 27 Feb 2010 05:40

phylo_roadking wrote:F-wolf, we've already totally discredited the Ohrdruf legend hereon another thread. There were a set of investigations carried out by the Federal government - and NO fission byproducts dating to the WWII period were found there; the only radioactive isotpes found could be precisely dated (by their rate of decay) to the atmospoheric tests of the 1950s and early '60s.
Well, I have one of the two tests done post unification. It clearly says there was a nuclear detonation at Rugen, at Ohrdruf and, as I remember, at Suhl. I can post portions of this if you like?

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Guaporense » 27 Feb 2010 06:53

phylo_roadking wrote:
The other document I reference refers to a test in Germany in 1944.
...and as you are aware, recent scientific testing at the proposed sites for that has proved that it did NOT occur.
As if they would test the bomb in Germany.... If they tested it, well, they would try first sending that baby on a V-2 directly to London to see what happens...

The prof that they didn't make atomic bombs is in the fact that they didn't use them on London.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 27 Feb 2010 17:32

The site rules would rather you posted the whole thing or a link to the whole thing; selective editing or "peekaboo" posting, isn't favoured here.

And regarding reports - I REALLY hope you don't mean the Federal Standards' Laboratory (the PTB) report...
http://www.ptb.de/de/aktuelles/archiv/p ... 060215.htm
Das thüringische Ohrdruf steht unter Beobachtung, seitdem der Historiker Rainer Karlsch mit seinem Buch "Hitlers Bombe" Spekulationen um eine mögliche Kernexplosion in Hitler-Deutschland im Jahre 1945 nährte. Bodenproben aus dem dortigen Gebiet – heute ein Truppenübungsplatz der Bundeswehr – wurden in den letzten Monaten von der Physikalisch-Technischen Bundesanstalt (PTB) im Auftrag des Zweiten Deutschen Fernsehens (ZDF) untersucht. Die Ergebnisse der Radionuklidanalysen liegen jetzt vor. Die Messwerte geben keinen Hinweis, dass andere Quellen als der Fallout oberirdischer Atombomben-Tests in den 1950er/1960er Jahren und der Reaktorunfall in Tschernobyl im Jahr 1986 für die Bodenkontaminationen verantwortlich sind. Insgesamt zeigen die PTB-Messergebnisse für eine Kernexplosion "keinen Befund".
Ohrdruf in Thuringia stands under observation, since the historian Rainer Karlsch with his book " Hitler Bombe" fed speculations about a possible nuclear explosion in Hitler's Germany in 1945 fed. Ground samples from that territory - today a troop exercise area of the German Federal Armed Forces - were examined in recent months by the Federal Standards Laboratory (PTB) on behalf the 2nd German television station (Second Channel of German Television). The results of the radionuclide analyses are now available. The measured values do not give a reference that other sources are responsible for the ground contamination other than the fallout from above-ground atomic bomb tests in the 1950s and 1960s and the reactor accident in Chernobyl in 1986. Taken as a whole the PTB results of measurement for a nuclear explosion show "None Found".

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by stellung » 27 Feb 2010 22:03

HenryS wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:F-wolf, we've already totally discredited the Ohrdruf legend hereon another thread. There were a set of investigations carried out by the Federal government - and NO fission byproducts dating to the WWII period were found there; the only radioactive isotpes found could be precisely dated (by their rate of decay) to the atmospoheric tests of the 1950s and early '60s.
Well, I have one of the two tests done post unification. It clearly says there was a nuclear detonation at Rugen, at Ohrdruf and, as I remember, at Suhl. I can post portions of this if you like?


I would appreciate it if you could post this information.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by HenryS » 28 Feb 2010 05:41

stellung wrote:
HenryS wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:F-wolf, we've already totally discredited the Ohrdruf legend hereon another thread. There were a set of investigations carried out by the Federal government - and NO fission byproducts dating to the WWII period were found there; the only radioactive isotpes found could be precisely dated (by their rate of decay) to the atmospoheric tests of the 1950s and early '60s.
Well, I have one of the two tests done post unification. It clearly says there was a nuclear detonation at Rugen, at Ohrdruf and, as I remember, at Suhl. I can post portions of this if you like?


I would appreciate it if you could post this information.
OK, I don't know if you guys have seen this study or not, so here goes. I have to copy this by hand so I'll try to hit some high points. Someone, someone I could never name, gave me this report:

Spurren nukliear Tests

Untersuchungen von Bodenproben aus Gottow, Ohrdruf and Bug/Ruegen




Inhalt

1. Ziel der Untersuchungen

2. Zusammenfassung dier Ergebnisse

2.1 Versuchsanlage "Gottow"

2.2 Krater "Ohrdruf"

2.3 Testflache "Bug/Ruegen

3. Referenzen und Dokumentation von messdaten, Berechnungen und Bildmaterial.


___________________
(my English translation of title: Traces of Nuclear Tests
Investigation of soil samples from Gottow, Ohrdruf and Bug/Ruegen

This dates from april, 2004

Since I don't know if you guys are familiar with this or not, I am going to do Bug/Ruegen and then you can either tell me to go on or not
________________________________


2.3 Tstflaeche Bug/Ruegen

Feststellbar waren ein trichterfoermiger Krater mit ca. 30 m Durchmesser (Tiefe 4 m) und die optischen Eindruecke sowei muendlichen Mitteilungen ueber einen eingeebneten Krater mit etwa 200 m Druchmesser, aber unbekannter Tiefe.
Wegen der losen, kuenstlich veraenderten bodenstruktur (Kieselsteine und Sand) auf der Kraterflache waren repraesentative Probennahmen nur am noch erkennbaren Kraterrand und in groesserer Entfernung (ca 800 m, bei der ehemaligen Postation) sinnvoll (tab. 2.3). Der Kraterrand zeigt, im Vergleich zur umgebenden Flaeche, Bedenveraenderungen bezueglich Farbe und Koernung.
Dier Ortsdosisleistungen schwankten im Bereich von 50-100 nSv?h.

Bislang durchgefuhrte Analysen erbrachten folgende Ergebnisse:

Dier Kleine Krater is juengeren Datums als der grossflache Krater. Fuer die Entstehung der erstgenannten war ein Energieaequivalent von 0.5 bis 2 t TNT erforderlich, fuer den zweiten ein erheblich hoeherer Wert (bis 200 t TNT). Letzterer is nur eingrenzbar durch Ermittlung der Kratertiefe und der Verdaemmung (Ref. 7).

Verglasungen und Aufschmelzungen an schwarzen Partikeln, die eine leicht erhoehte Akivitaet unter dem GM-Zaehlrohr aufwiesen, konnten aus Proben des suedlichen Teil des Kraterrandes (ab 20 cm Tiefe) nur vereinzelt fest gestellt werden. Durch Probennahme in Groesseren Tiefen erwartet der gutachterlich taetige Geologe deutliche Ergebnisse (Ref 10).

Gammaspektrometrie: Die Bodenproben von Kraterrand und Poststation zeigen Cs137-Aktivitaeten von 35 bzw. 48 Bq/kg. Von amtlichen Stellen werdenfuer Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Werte von 14 bis 23 Bq/kg angeben.
Die Uranaktivitaet (U238) ergib fuer die genannten Orte 18 bzw. 80Bq/kg. Eine Anreicherung von U235 is aus den bislang vorliegenden Daten nicht abzuleiten.

Alpha-, Beta-Gesamtaktivitaet: Aus Teilen der Bodenprobe des Kraterrandes wurden durch Siebung und Sedimentation in Wasser Partikelfraktionen zishen 0.2u. 39,6g mit Druchmessern groesser/kleiner 1 mm hergestellt. Deren Fixierung in einem getrockneten Sedimentkuchen (mit Konzentration der schweren Komponente am Boden, wie beim tonhaltigen Material von Ohrdruf) gelang bei sandigem Material nur mit Zuckerzusatz. Es ergab sich in einer Fraktion (4.4 g.(sign for "greater than" which I do not have on this keyborad) 1 mm.) eine Beta-Aktivitaet von 340 Bq/kg und eine Alpha-Aktivitaet von 8 Bq/kg (tab. 3)

Deutlisch ueber dem Normal liegende Beta - bzw. Alpha-Aktivitaet zeigt dagegen ein durch Schwere-Sedimentation gewonnenes feinkoerniges Praeparat (0,2 g, (sign for "less than") 1 mm) mit beta 9.400Bq/kg bzw Alpha 410 Bq/kg.

Die Auswertungen und die Suche nach Begruendungen fuer die Anomalitaeten snce nich abgeschlossen. Eine Ursache is die Weigerung von zwei Instituten die Ergebnisse der Analyse von Praeparaten, die mit grossem Zeitaufwand extrahiert wurden, vorzulegen - oder das Marterial zurueck zu geben.

Es stehen zudem entscheidende alpha- und massenspektrometrische Analysen aus.

Fazit zum Bug:

Die o.g. Ergebnisse zeigen eine Anormalitaeten. Im Vergleich zu Ohrdruf deuten sich beim Bug ebenfalls auffaellig hohe Beta-Aktivitaeten in dier feinkoernigen Fraktion des Bodens an.

Es sind zudem in Proben des Bug einige Gammalinien zu beachten, deren Zuordnung mit den Ueblichen Auswerteprogrammen nicht moeglich war. Demartige Aspkkte sollten Anlass sein, moegliche Fusions-Komponenten gezielt zu untersuchen. Es koennten unterscheidliche Materialien be der Erzeugung der Krater vom Bug und von Ordruf eingesetzt worden sein. Belastbare Bewertungen lassen sich erst abgeben, nachdem Proben aus groesseren Tiefen auf Aktivierungs - und Spaltprodukte, sowie auf Aktiniden untersucht worden sind.

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Feb 2010 08:40

Who made this report?
Someone, someone I could never name, gave me this report.
Was this report something "ultra very top secret" that you (and we) were supposed never to see?

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Re: German Bomber modified for A Bomb Delivery

Post by phylo_roadking » 28 Feb 2010 15:25

Whether madeup cobblers or simply misguided actually doesn't matter in this case - it's entirely superceded by the Federal Government's PTB Report of 15th February 2006.
Tell me what you think
Honestly?

I don't think the rules of AHF permit me to do so. Suffice it to say a "scientific report" is ONLY as good as the reputation and identity of the "scientist"/organisation compiling the report. If he/she or YOU can't...or won't...put a name to it - it has absolutely no provenance or credibility whatsoever. It could for instance have been written by a university student then misused - like another famous report on weapons of mass destruction :lol:....

As a P.S. - strange how the Rugen "report" doesn't include much location data by which we could ALL view those "craters" on Google Earth...

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