V-1 transfer of technology

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pan
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V-1 transfer of technology

#1

Post by pan » 04 May 2005, 08:17

Can anyone tell me exactly how and when the U.S. received enough of a V-1 flying bomb to reverse engineer their own JB-2? Were any German scientists consulted at any point? Was Hanna Reitsch asked about the bomb when she was in custody?

Simon Gunson
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#2

Post by Simon Gunson » 04 May 2005, 09:14

Hanna Reitsch actually flew the Reichberg IV manned V-1 rocket under development as a suicide aircraft. She was extensively debriefed as were many aeronautical engineers and test pilots under operation Paperclip.


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MAX_theHitMan
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#3

Post by MAX_theHitMan » 05 May 2005, 14:02

Hello Pan,
you can check some interesting information on the JB-2 Loon (MX-544) here ...

http://www.customizedsvcsmgmt.com/MACE/History.htm
"The success of the JB-2 program led directly to America's first generation of modern guided ballistic surface-to-surface missiles-the USAF Matador, Mace, Snark, and Navaho, or Charlie 1."
By the way, don´t build one in your backyard.
These things are dangerous :wink:
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pan
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backyard Missile

#4

Post by pan » 05 May 2005, 14:12

Too late!

Boffin builds backyard missile
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image ... lsejet.JPG

On the dirt track outside his home, Bruce Simpson tests the Pulsejet that will power his missile. Picture / Kenny Rodger

03.06.03

By SCOTT MacLEOD

A home handyman is building a missile in his garage with parts bought over the internet and shipped through Customs.

Bruce Simpson has stated on his website that he intends to construct "cruise missiles", which are taking shape in his shed northwest of Auckland.

Security experts say the ease with which Mr Simpson has obtained parts and built a working jet-engine is a warning that such weapons could be built by the wrong people.

They are divided over whether the missile plans he has posted online encourage terrorism or simply raise awareness that the technology is widely available.

Mr Simpson, a 49-year-old internet developer, stated on his "Interesting Projects" website on April 29 that he would build a cruise missile.

He has already test-fired several noisy jet engines, as neighbours up to 1km away have testified.

Mr Simpson told the Herald that the missiles would not be used for terrorism, but to test home-built jet engines.

He said he was fascinated by pulse-jets, which are best known for powering the German V1 flying bomb in World War II. He has dedicated four years to developing an improved version, called the X-Jet, which he hopes to license.

Mr Simpson posted details of the X-Jet online, and has given step-by-step instructions on building a cruise missile.

He was able to buy online the electronic parts needed to guide the missile once fired and import them and was alarmed at the ease with which he was able to pursue his project.

"All this stuff is off the shelf," he said. "It came in under the radar. It rang no alarm bells."

Among the imported items are a radio control transmitter and flight pack, global positioning gear, antennas, software, video camera and a flight control system. He ordered them from overseas websites, they were delivered within two weeks, and passed through customs with ease.

Mr Simpson bought parts for the missile's body and wings - such as stainless steel, polystyrene sheets and fibreglass - locally.

The Customs Service's national manager of investigations, Matt Roseingrave, said he could not comment for privacy reasons on Mr Simpson's imports.

However, he said many items could be imported that were innocuous by themselves but which could be dangerous if altered or used with other items.

Neighbours do not seem to mind the noise when Mr Simpson tests his jets.

"It's real loud," said one. "We think, 'What the hell is that? Just Bruce Simpson with his flamin' motors'."

Another said: "It gets to your eardrums a bit. We joke about ringing noise control."

But the neighbours did not know Mr Simpson had turned his attention to missiles.

Mr Simpson has been heavily involved with the internet since the mid-1990s, running news websites such as aardvark.co.nz and 7am.com.

His missile site is entitled "A DIY Cruise Missile - watch me build one for under $5000". He said the site had received 250,000 hits in two weeks, including many that appeared to be from United States military and security institutions.

Air Force staff said it was possible to build such a weapon at home and pulse-jets had been used to power model aircraft overseas.

Senior defence and police spokesmen would not comment on Mr Simpson's missile. Nor would the CIA and FBI say whether they were monitoring the site.

One official, who would not be named, said there were concerns that Mr Simpson's website could be violating the international Missile Technology Control Regime, under which New Zealand has agreed to restrict the availability of missile technology.

Former US Defence Department analyst and terrorism expert Paul Buchanan said Mr Simpson might not be trying to encourage terrorism, but "might be facilitating it".

If the missiles worked, it would send a powerful message to authorities, he said. "It might alert them as to how darn easy it is to assemble this stuff."

A Massey University anthropologist specialising in terrorism, Jeff Sluka, said big terrorist organisations already knew about the technology that Mr Simpson was posting online.

"The problem is the people who see it who hadn't thought of it - like neo-Nazi punks."

Mr Simpson's missiles are designed to carry a small warhead of just 10kg. However, his website points to a news story that reports 1.3kg of anthrax would kill more than 100,000 people if dropped on New York City. Asked if his website helped terrorists, Mr Simpson said the information was widely available.

"I'm not publicising anything that's not already on the net," he said.

His missiles - if they function properly - could fly 100km to Auckland in less than 15 minutes, and he claimed the Air Force had no way of stopping them.

But he would ask the Air Force to help him test-fire the missiles, and would seek a remote spot - just in case they went awry.

The Air Force's main spokesman, Wing Commander John Seward, would not comment on the military's ability to stop the missiles.

Mr Simpson was awarded a $31,000 grant from Technology New Zealand in February 2001 to develop the X-Jet, but never used the money.

Technology NZ investment manager John Gibson said Mr Simpson had impressed as "a pretty clever guy" and the X-Jet looked like a good project.

Mr Simpson said anyone with half a brain could build a cruise missile. "You don't have to be a rocket scientist."

Do-it-yourself missile specifications:

Powerplant: Pulsejet or X-Jet

Wingspan: 2.5m

Length: 2.2m

Speed: 640km/h

Range: 160km

Accurate to: 100m

Weight: 60kg (with fuel, not warhead)

Warhead: 10kg

Guidance: Global positioning system

Materials: Radar-resistant

Making a cruise missile:

* Radio control transmitter imported from online hobby store. Delivered by international courier in less than a week. Passed through Customs without query. $400.

* GPS receiver, antenna, computer interface and software from United States. Delivered by airmail in less than week, passed through Customs without query. $210.

* Radio control flight pack from United States. Delivered by airmail in two weeks. Passed through Customs without query. $260.

* Video camera and RF downlink, purchased online, imported. $225.

* Flight attitude control system, purchased online, imported. $207.

* Stainless steel for jet engine, bought locally. $175.

* Foam/polystyrene sheets for fuselage/control surfaces, bought locally. $83.

* Fibreglass resin, cloth and mat, bought locally. $260.

pan
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#5

Post by pan » 05 May 2005, 14:24

Thanks for all the response. I'm familiar with the "facts" and general history of the V-1 and JB-2. What I'm looking for are specific references to incidents and specifically documents of the Allies talking about a V-1 they found or examined, or a person they interrogated about the program.

examples
http://www.df.lth.se/~triad/rockets/indexen.html
http://www.pinetreeweb.com/left4-2.htm
http://www.odci.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v ... p_0005.htm

As for the obviousness of the V-1, we know it to be a fairly simple device now, but then it was still a relatively mysterious weapon. Jets were still somewhat of a novelty. And the US had very bad luck in developing their own flying bomb independently, even before they started copying the Germans. I watched test films of JB-2s at the history dept. of Edwards Air Force base just last week. Out of the 20 or so recorded on film in 1945 at Eglin AFB in FLA, only two were successful! Launchings by the Navy in 1951 at Mugu were still failing. It seems like we could have used all the help we could get from German scientists. But did we ask them?

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MAX_theHitMan
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#6

Post by MAX_theHitMan » 05 May 2005, 14:42

Pan

Too late!

Boffin builds backyard missile
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image ... lsejet.JPG
UAAAHAHAHAHAHA :lol: ... I know whatcha mean

Some folks are just plain mad.
Mad scientists that is :P
http://www.motomanproject.org/PulseJetBBQ.htm


Image

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I haven´t had a chance yet to dig deep into the files of SCIOS and BIOS pertaining to
allied information on captured V-1s but as soon as I have available information I will
give you all I can help @Pan.

I´m sure that there might be some very good info on the web available too, I´ll take a look at that too.

See ya soon @Pan

tazorii
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V1 & the US

#7

Post by tazorii » 13 May 2005, 21:35

Dear All,

Just a quick note which might help:

As far as I am concerned, the first port of call for the YANKs with regards to the V1 was Saint Leu d'Esserent. The US army stayed here after it was captured Aug 1944. I too am looking for more info on this. The launch sites along the coasts seem to have been taken by the Brits & Canadians on the way up to Belgium. (NUCOURT also seems a probability)

A couple of Captured V1's, a shed load of money fromt he US govn', FORD motor company and hey, the US have their own V1...total failure due to the A - Bomb. I think I have a few notes about V1 being launched in the Pacific somewhere I'll have a look.

hope this helps for the time being, I'll post more when I have found out which Amercian archives can help me get some photos of Saint leu d'Esserent and who stayed here. It is believed the US relaid the railway.

http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/st-leu/

Graham

Simon Gunson
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#8

Post by Simon Gunson » 19 May 2005, 15:42

After the war Dornberger and Werner von Braun were interred briefly by the British. In an intelligence summary of intercepted conversations by Dornberger, he revealed that he and von Braun had begun negotiating with General Electric to surrender Peenemunde's secrets and scientists as early as October 1944. Contact was made through the german embassy at Lisbon. Von Braun's brother Sigsmund was a diplomat at the Vatican at the same time that OSS agent James Jesus Angleton in company with Moe berg was landed in Italy to establish contact with Italian nuclear physicists. Undoubtedly, Angleton and Sigsmund von Braun hatched a plot at the Vatican to assist Werner von Braun and Dornberger. I would suggest that V1 information was passed to General Electric through Lisbon in October 1944.

Incidentally did GE build the JB-2 ??

More fun than making microwaves I'd bet :wink:

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Re: V1 & the US

#9

Post by Paul Lakowski » 21 May 2005, 23:39

tazorii wrote:Dear All,



http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/st-leu/

Graham
Interesting site! I was reading about the Tallboy attacks and they apparently divebombed the vents! I didn't think such a multi engined bomber could divebomb! Can any one elaborate on what they are speaking of?

pan
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Polish undeground connection

#10

Post by pan » 24 May 2005, 17:25

There is apparently evidence it was the Poles who found a V-1 and passed it on to the British. I was given the following bibliography.

Intekkigence Cooperation between Poland and Great Britain during WW II
Written by the Anglo Polish Historical Committee published by Valentine Mitchell  ISBN 0 85303 656X
 
it is soon to be published and I would suggest you ask your local library to obtain it for you on publication as it will cost approx L45
 
other sources in English:
F.H.Hinsley British Intelligence in II WW Vol 3 part I  HMS Office 1984
R.V. Jones Most Secret War, British Scientific Intelligence 1939-1945  Hamish Hamilton 1978
Stephen Dorril  MI6, London 2000 p 249 has unadutarated Polish history
William MacKenzie The secret history of SOE, PRO London 2000

tazorii
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#11

Post by tazorii » 07 Jul 2005, 11:36

I was watching a tv program the other day about the 30AU, an elite group of solider sent deep behind enemy lines to 'witch hunt' NAZI scientists. The British, (as posted before) recovered a V1 thanks to some polish resistant workers.

I agree, it would be interesting to find out more on how the allies got their hands on the V1 and when the US started to test their 'loon'. As far as I was concerned it was after VE. I understood that it was when the 'yanks' got to Nordhausen (DORA) that they got their hands on the technology.

With regards to the tall boy and dive bombing, I am sure that the Bomb Crews didn't attempt this. I put it on my web site because a french man recalls seeing this (Maybe he got mixed up between fighters and bombers)

Regards
Graham

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kfbr392
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#12

Post by kfbr392 » 14 Jul 2005, 09:53

here is some info, from W. Hellmold, "Die V1, eine Dokumentation", page 237
[...] On the 9th of Juli 1944 a machine of the Air Transport Command landed on Wright Field loaded with V1 duds and parts. [...] AAF Colonel Dane, stationed in England, had procured V1 duds for Ezra Kotcher.
so it apprears they scavenged what came down over england w/o exploding.

the germans made sure nothing of this nature would fall into the enemies hand when retreating in france.

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kfbr392
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#13

Post by kfbr392 » 14 Jul 2005, 12:46

tazorii wrote:I agree, it would be interesting to find out more on how the allies got their hands on the V1 and when the US started to test their 'loon'. As far as I was concerned it was after VE. I understood that it was when the 'yanks' got to Nordhausen (DORA) that they got their hands on the technology.

first launch of the loon was 12th october 1944 (crashed soon after launch), first airlaunch in november 1944.
it was planed to use the loon against japan, not in europe.

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#14

Post by Larry D. » 14 Jul 2005, 12:56

Hmmm.....

It seems like an extraordinarily short lead time from the receipt of a bunch of "duds and parts" on 9 July to the first launch of a copied knock-off on 12 October. I know they did technical and engineering things at Blitz speed during the last couple of years of the war, but 3 months is a bit too fast to accept. There must have been some prior parallel work going on.

O.K. - so the lead page of the "History of the Matador and Mace Tactical Missiles" web site says this is exactly what was done - reverse engineering in just a couple of weeks. Unbelievable!

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kfbr392
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#15

Post by kfbr392 » 14 Jul 2005, 13:22

that site you mentinoned
http://www.customizedsvcsmgmt.com/MACE/History.htm

seems to be overall accurate.

however, the "17 days claim" is not accurate.

it took 17 day to reverse engineer the engine, though still using many german parts! but the whole robot bomb did not lift of till more than 3 months later, albeit still riddled with bugs.


"The propulsion engineers had the least difficulties, they had assembled a Argus-Schmid 109-014 engine from original German and new American parts. 17 days after unloading the V1 wreck pieces the pipe was tested in a subterranean test bed at the ATSC."
source: Hellmond, "Die V1", p. 238

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