Ju-390 mission to New York.

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admill79
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Ju-390 mission to New York.

Post by admill79 » 24 Jul 2005 01:07

Does anyone have any information on a Ju-390 mission to New York City on or around September 1944? Thanks Allen

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 24 Jul 2005 03:50

Hi

There is no proof at all the flight happened.

That being said there is no proof that this flight didn't happen either. :wink:

I think it's a myth but that's just me.

Too many incconsistencies like a/c#, Unit, date discrepencies of months, even departure location.

regards
A :)

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PapageiStaffel
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Post by PapageiStaffel » 24 Jul 2005 10:56

Hi,

Morever, in september 1944 the germans had lost the Brittany. It's better to take off from Brest instead of West Germany if you want to cross the ocean. In September 1944, there were a lot of allied fighters on the continent.

So long

admill79
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Ju-390 mission to New York.

Post by admill79 » 24 Jul 2005 13:10

Thank you both for the information! Here is another question. How do you think the story got started about the flight? Thanks Allen

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Post by Nabben » 24 Jul 2005 14:01

Hi.
According to my book, it says about the Ju-390:One example of the Ju-290B-1 was built,as a prototype pressurised high altitude bomber, and in 1943 two prototypes of the larger Ju-390, a six engined heavy bomber/reconnaissance aircraft with an estimated range of 9.700km. The Ju-390V2 underwent operational trials with FAGr 5 in early 1944, including one test flight to within 20 km of New York. Is this documented? Hans

admill79
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Ju-390 mission to New York.

Post by admill79 » 24 Jul 2005 15:01

Thanks Nabben for your information. Okay lets say there was a flight when would be the last time that it could of taken place and where would that have been? Thanks Allen

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Post by Larry D. » 24 Jul 2005 17:22

You fellas had better roll up your sleeves and get busy doing an extended search on Google, on this web site, on Feldgrau and most especially on the TOCH! web site. If you don't, you will be falling asleep tonight with your heads full of mythical information. This is one of the most persistent myths ever to pervade the history of the Luftwaffe. Every days someone new comes along and restarts it all over again. THERE WAS NO REPEAT NO FLIGHT TO NEW YORK OR ANYWHERE NEAR NEW YORK BY THE LUFTWAFFE DURING WORLD WAR II. This myth has been discredited and proven false a zillion times on these and countless other web sites over the past 8+ years. End of story.

--Larry

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 24 Jul 2005 18:38

Thank you Larry. Well put! :lol:

I found this on another Forum but seems to summarize what I've found to be the "Facts".
R Leonard wrote:According to Green, the usual source for the mission claim, it went thusly:
"In January 1944, the Ju390 V2 was delivered to Fernaufklaerungs-Gruppe 5 (Long-Range Reconnaissance Group) at Mont de Marson south of Bordeaux, for operational evaluation. The Ju390 carried sufficient fuel for an endurance of 32 hours, and after a few short-distance flights, the aircraft flew from Mont de Marson to a point some 12 miles from the US coast, north of New York, returning successfully to its base."

Okay, that is approximately 3960 miles one way, so figure 7900 miles, give or take, round trip. But according to the information I can find, the range of the Ju390 V-2 is given as being from 8000 km (4971 miles) up to 9700 km (6027 miles). My theory on the difference is based (1) on counting a safety factor in the lower number into the higher number, typically calculated as .20 x fuel for range plus fuel for 45 minutes, and (2) any additional auxiliary fuel tanks which could have been installed. In either case, the 6027 miles maximum is somewhat short of 7900 miles.

So, that’s interesting. Now let’s see ... if the Ju390 could travel 7900 miles (about 12714 kilometers) and the rated cruise speed was 347 km/hr, that works out to about 36.6 hours at cruise which exceeds the 32 hours cited by Green. Further, that little calculation doesn’t begin to address fuel consumption, especially expended climbing to altitude. And don’t forget that the first half mission from the vicinity of Bordeaux to the vicinity of New York and return in the winter means bucking headwinds all the way … doesn’t do much for the fuel consumption, can rob you of an average 20 percent efficiency in the right conditions.

The BMW 801 engine, at cruise, burned about 570 liters (150 gallons) of fuel per hour, or for the 6 engine Ju390, about 3,420 liters (900 gallons) an hour. For Green’s declared 32 hours of flight, not counting climb out consumption, headwinds, and other vagaries, that’s some 109,440 liters of fuel. And of course, 109,440 liters of fuel is in the neighborhood of 28,795 gallons (US), which would weigh about 200,000 pounds.

But wait ... empty weight of the Ju-390 was 36,900 kilograms (81,350 pounds) and the fully loaded weight was 75,500 kilograms (166,448 pounds). And, of course, I didn’t even count the crew (10 - figure 75 kilograms each or 750, their gear another 25 kilograms each or 250 kilograms or 1000 kilograms altogether) or oil (probably in the neighborhood about 36 liters per engine or another 250 kilograms) factors of in the load out and I presume the 1800 kilograms bomb payload wasn’t loaded.

So, figure:
Crew and incidentals: 2205 pounds
Oil: 480 pounds
Fuel for mission based on 32 hours of flight: 200,000 pounds
Total: 202685 pounds

less

Full Load weight: 166,448 pounds

Equals: 36,237 pounds over weight.

How do you suppose they got all that off the ground?
and
Romantic Technofreak wrote:It is first to be found in an intelligence report from August 11th, 1944, composed by the questioning of captured members of the German armed forces. A prisoner, who claimed having been photo assistant in Mont-de-Marsan, stated during his interview that "a Ju 390 was with the FAGr 5 from January 6th, 1944, for about four weeks for trials. After some short-distance flights, a successful reconnoissance flight was made until a point in a distance of nearly 20 km off the American coast north of New York. Pictures were brought back, showing the coast in that distance."
Another prisoner, in the same report, said that the Ju 390 "had an endurance of 32 hours".

Nearly literally, those only as fibs describable "evidences" are to be found in literature, overtaken without any criticism.
Scroll down a bit on The Great Planes Forum.

Swing and a MYTH!!!

regards
A :)

admill79
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Ju-390 mission to New York.

Post by admill79 » 24 Jul 2005 19:37

Gentlemen! I have read your information and I have looked into a few different links concerning the aircraft and the flight and I agree that it didnt happen even though we probably wished it had! Thanks for your help! Thanks Allen

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Post by Larry D. » 24 Jul 2005 22:40

Good job, Aufklärer, you hit on all of the main points. I actually have a copy of the ADI(K) interrogation report in which our photo lab technician friend from Fernaufklärungsgruppe 5 told his tall tale. William Green forgot to read the warning at the top of the report that, in so many words, states that the information contain herein may not be factual! :D

--Larry

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 25 Jul 2005 00:59

Admill79

You're welcome.

Larry

I just looked at alot of webpages (and a couple older books) and only a few had a clear statement that it was fanciful flight. Some ponder that the flight may or may not have happened or quote Green as fact. Your having the docs makes the origin easy to trace. :)

regards
A :)

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Post by Huck » 25 Jul 2005 01:26

Hi Auf,

I have no ideea if the flight did take place or not, but I am very skeptical of the "facts" presented by the guy you quoted:

* New York to Bordeaux is not 3960 miles but 3570 miles.

* BMW 801 fuel consumption at cruise is not 570 l !!

correct numbers are:

Sparleistung (cruise setting): 200 l/hour

Kampfleistung (combat setting): 570 l/hour

200 l * 0.74 kg/l = 148 kg => aprox fuel consumption 6 * 150 kg = 900 kg/hour

* about cruise speed: usually for large transports the cruise speed was given at around 3000m, unless otherwise specified; 360 km/h TAS cruise speed is 300 km/h IAS, this means for the same overall fuel consumption Ju-390 cruises at 300km/h at sea level, 360 km/h at 3000m, 415 km/h at 5500m (cruise at full throttle height, recommended cruise speed/alt for long range missions)

(2 * 7641)/415 = 15282/415 = 36 hours

36 hours * 900 kg/hour = 32400 kg fuel required

* Ju-390 max range with internal fuel tanks was 9500 km, but the heavy lift capability of Ju-390 could have allowed it to carry 50% more fuel in fuselage tanks (the way Fw-200 used operationally) to make this flight possible
Last edited by Huck on 25 Jul 2005 04:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Huck » 25 Jul 2005 01:48

Larry D. wrote:You fellas had better roll up your sleeves and get busy doing an extended search on Google, on this web site, on Feldgrau and most especially on the TOCH! web site. If you don't, you will be falling asleep tonight with your heads full of mythical information. This is one of the most persistent myths ever to pervade the history of the Luftwaffe. Every days someone new comes along and restarts it all over again. THERE WAS NO REPEAT NO FLIGHT TO NEW YORK OR ANYWHERE NEAR NEW YORK BY THE LUFTWAFFE DURING WORLD WAR II. This myth has been discredited and proven false a zillion times on these and countless other web sites over the past 8+ years. End of story.

--Larry
I have not seen a clear proof that this flight took place, but what I've seen clearly is that those who argue for the opposite theory are always those who strive to propagate the idea that the German atomic bomb program was not a serious enterprise. You fit very well in this pattern of behaviour Larry, I am sorry to say this.

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Myth of Ju 390 flight!

Post by ju55dk » 25 Jul 2005 07:28

If you are really interested in this matter, you have to get a copy of the book " Die Grossen Dessauer" by Karl Kössler and Günther Ott. They do discuss the matter on the supposed New York flight at lenght, and confirm that it did not take place. At the time when the supposed flight shold take place, the Ju 390 was still undergoing trials in Prag-Rusin. The sources for this are the flightlogs of the men who made these trials.

I can only agree with Larry's comments. And it would be nice if people would stop to use Greens book as a primary source. It was nice for its time, but today must be considered a bit out of date.

Junker 8)

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Post by Larry D. » 25 Jul 2005 12:30

Huck wrote -
I have not seen a clear proof that this flight took place, but what I've seen clearly is that those who argue for the opposite theory are always those who strive to propagate the idea that the German atomic bomb program was not a serious enterprise. You fit very well in this pattern of behaviour Larry, I am sorry to say this.
As we have seen here all too often, when you don't know what you are talking about, always launch a personal attack on the person who posts something you disagree with.

As for the German atomic bomb, you must have me confused with someone else. I NEVER said or even implied that the German atomic bomb project wasn't a serious endeavor. All I ever said was that they never produced one or even got really close. That was the position of the USSBS folks, the Manhattan Project and AEC people, the USG and creditable investigative authors. Since I wasn't there, that's good enough for me. If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest.

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