Hi all,
Are there any evidence of the loses of the 323 Gigant during 1944 in Romania?
A few days ago a Veteran pilot asked me to find out if rumors he heard during the war and after are right.
After some reserch,it got worst.
The data are not matching at all.
Can you help?
Me 323 lost in Romania 1944.
Very difficult to document. The Gen.Qu.(6.Abt.) Genst.d.Lw. Verlustmeldungen bei den fliegende Verbände reports for 1944 have never been found and were probably destroyed at the end of the war. The two units operating the Me 323 in Romania in 1944 were I. und II./TG 5 and here is some extracted information that may prove of interest:Are there any evidence of the loses of the 323 Gigant during 1944 in Romania?
I./TG 5
[Extract]
Poland, South Russia, Romania and Hungary. (Nov 43 - Aug 44)
12 Dec 43: Gruppe transferred from Kirovograd to Uman and still operating from there on 9 Jan 44.
1 Jan 44: all or elements now at Biała Podlaska/E Poland.
14 Jan 44: elements possibly at Nikolayev.
29 Feb 44: Me 323 (C8+DF) force landed in Poland and later blown up to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.
11 Mar 44: at Warsaw.
20 Mar 44: Me 323 (C8+EE) crashed near Ottyn (Poland, but not located), 85%.
22 Mar 44: Me 323 (C8+BF) crashed on the Eastern Front - no details.
4 Apr 44: at Zilistea/15 km NE of Buzău in C Romania.
9 Apr 44: Me 323 (C8+CG) lost in operations in the East - no details.
15 Apr 44: Me 323 (C8+BE) crashed at Fp. Belgrade-Zemun - no details, 85%.
16 Apr 44: Me 323 bombed on the ground during U.S. raid on Fp. Belgrade-Zemun, 5%.
17 Apr 44: Me 323 (C8+AE) bombed on the ground at Belgrade-Zemun, 20%.
28 Apr 44: transferred from Romania to Kecskemét/78 km SE of Budapest this date.
9 May 44: Me 323 crashed at Fp. Balomir/14 km SW of Sebeš in C Romania, 85%.
14 Jun 44: 2 Me 323s (incl. C8+AF) strafed on the ground during a U.S. raid on Fp. Kecskemét.
23 Aug 44: Stab with 1. – 3. Staffel at Kecskemét.
25-28 Aug 44: took part in the air evacuation of German troops from Romania.
28-30 Aug 44: returned to Germany and disbanded. Two of the Gruppe’s Staffeln with a total of 12 Me 323s were used in the formation of the re-established 16./TG 4 while the rest of the Gruppe went to the reorganized 15./TG 4.
II./TG 5
[Extract]
Germany, Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia. (Oct 43 - Aug 44)
1 Jan 44: Goslar with 6. Staffel detached at Gardelegen.
Jan – Mar 44: deployed from Goslar to Poland, but the exact dates and locations are not known.
16 Mar 44: all or elements now at Biała Podlaska/E Poland.
24 Mar 44: Me 323 (C8+AP) lost during operations in the East - no details.
12 Apr 44: Me 323 (C8+GP) bombed on the ground at Fp. Wiener-Neustadt, 100%.
16 Apr 44: 3 Me 323s (C8+HP and DS) bombed on the ground at Fp. Belgrade-Zemun, 60%, 40% and 20%.
20 Apr 44: Gruppe at Zilistea/15 km NE of Buzău in C Romania with 5. Staffel detached at Huşi/E Romania. Gruppe believed to be taking part in the large-scale airlift operations centered on the evacuations of Odessa and Crimea.
Jun 44: Gruppe (Stab and 5. – 8. Staffel) transferred from Ploeşti/Romania to Posen (Poznań)/NW Poland. No operations were flown from there and then at the end of July II./TG 5 moved to Brünn (Brno) in Czechoslovakia where it was still located on 22 August with some 27 Me 323s, 1 Ju 52 and 1 Fi 156.
17 Aug 44: Me 323 (C8+GR) crash landed between Riga and Insterburg/E Prussia due to engine failure, 60%.
25-28 Aug 44: believed to have taken part in the air evacuation of German troops from Romania, but confirmation is needed.
28-30 Aug 44: returned to Germany and disbanded. Remaining assets were used in the formation of the re-established 16./TG 4.
--Larry
According to Axworthy 'Third Axis, Fourth Ally', the Niculescu Detachment claimed to have shot down two Me 323 in the Bucharest operation.
The report entitled 'Treason and Retreat from Romania' of the Luftflottenkommando 4 (no. 270/42 - dated 29.1.45) does not mention any Gigant used in the retreat from Romania, only Ju 52 of III./T.G.2 and III./T.G. 3) are mentioned.
All the best
Andreas
The report entitled 'Treason and Retreat from Romania' of the Luftflottenkommando 4 (no. 270/42 - dated 29.1.45) does not mention any Gigant used in the retreat from Romania, only Ju 52 of III./T.G.2 and III./T.G. 3) are mentioned.
All the best
Andreas
Thanks guys for the help,but still not much..
Acording to veteran pilot Ioan Marinciu 9th fighter gr,who was stationed at Boteni, one 323 was distroyed on the gorung in june 44 by P-38's.
Acording to witneses and a log book,sgt Grecu from 2/th fighter gr atacked and forcelanded a 323 near Arges river Pataroaiu villege.
26/8/44 cpt Dan Scurtu claimed a 323 near Buftea 30 soldiers dead rest pow.
27/8/44 lt Rozariu another 323 near Buc. 20 deads.
Were those two last 323 cariing the Brandenburg para Batalion,who was to take Otopeni airfield?
The mistery is that Scurtu and Rozariu ,never talked about this event.
There are two posib:
1. That they had many German camarads and friends after few years of fights agains the Soviets,and were executing orders they didn't like.
2. There are rumors that one of these planes has as ocupants mambers of families of the Luftwaffe personal.
Can you help about those last two planes?
Acording to veteran pilot Ioan Marinciu 9th fighter gr,who was stationed at Boteni, one 323 was distroyed on the gorung in june 44 by P-38's.
Acording to witneses and a log book,sgt Grecu from 2/th fighter gr atacked and forcelanded a 323 near Arges river Pataroaiu villege.
26/8/44 cpt Dan Scurtu claimed a 323 near Buftea 30 soldiers dead rest pow.
27/8/44 lt Rozariu another 323 near Buc. 20 deads.
Were those two last 323 cariing the Brandenburg para Batalion,who was to take Otopeni airfield?
The mistery is that Scurtu and Rozariu ,never talked about this event.
There are two posib:
1. That they had many German camarads and friends after few years of fights agains the Soviets,and were executing orders they didn't like.
2. There are rumors that one of these planes has as ocupants mambers of families of the Luftwaffe personal.
Can you help about those last two planes?
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Warlordimi
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In his book, Willy Reschke speaks about one of the blackest days for the JG301 when Romania turned to the allied. The remnants of the IV./JG301 were ordered to leave the airfiel surrounded by AA manned by the romanian army. A Me323 transporting the female crew of the base was shot down soon after take-off.
I'll try to find the precise date tonight!
I'll try to find the precise date tonight!
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Warlordimi
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- Joined: 14 Dec 2004, 13:50
- Location: Brussels, Belgium
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Warlordimi
- Member
- Posts: 99
- Joined: 14 Dec 2004, 13:50
- Location: Brussels, Belgium
)! It's 14HOO Brussel's time here! FWIW:
On 22 August 1944, 250 Ln-Helferinnen (uniformed female signal troops) were transported from Waldlager 1 in Stepani/10.5 km N of Bucharest to Targsorul-Nou airfield near Ploesti and over the next several days flown to Budapest aboard Me 323 and Ju 52 aircraft from II. and III./TG 3. Most of the girls belonged to 5.(Helferinnen-)Kp./Ln-Abt. 81. [Note: II. and III./TG 3 were equipped with the Ju 52 and there is no evidence in the pages and pages of information that I have on both of these Gruppen that they ever had any Me 323 transports – not even one].
On 24-25 August 1944 a further 250 Ln-Helferinnen under the command of Ln-Oberführerin von Möller were evacuated from Targsorul-Nou airfield. The evening of 25 August the 2,000 remaining German personnel in Waldlager 1 and nearby Waldlager 2 were surrounded by 6,000 Romanian soldiers. A German Fallschirmjäger-Kp. under Major Weithöhner was flown in to Otopeni airfield to reinforce the German positions at Waldlager 1 and 2 and at the two airfields (Targsorul-Nou and Otopeni).
Despite the air evacuation from the greater Bucharest area of approximately 500 Ln-Helferinnen to Budapest and then on to Vienna, many Ln-Helferinnen were captured when the German defense of Waldlager 1 and 2 collapsed in 28 August. Others who could not be evacuated disappeared and are still listed as missing today. In February 1945, perhaps as many as 1,000 Ln-Helferinnen were being held in a camp in Romania called “Ghencea”. Others who were being evacuated by bus to Hungary were killed when their column was strafed by Russian (and/or Romanian) aircraft.
The author (Hoffmann) did an outstanding job piecing all of this together using documents, German Red Cross investigative files, International Red Cross investigative files, and extensive interviews with surviving participants, including the Kommandeur of Ln-Abt. 81, Obstlt. Karl Möhlenbeck, and many former Ln-Helferinnen. In this account there is no mention of any Me 323 or Ju 52 transports being shot down with Ln-Helferinnen evacuees or civilian women aboard. So, is it possible that we have another myth here?
[Source: Hoffmann, Karl Otto - Ln: Die Geschichte der Luftnachrichtentruppe. 3 Bde (Neckargemünd, 1965-73), Band II/Teil 2, pp.216-24].
On 22 August 1944, 250 Ln-Helferinnen (uniformed female signal troops) were transported from Waldlager 1 in Stepani/10.5 km N of Bucharest to Targsorul-Nou airfield near Ploesti and over the next several days flown to Budapest aboard Me 323 and Ju 52 aircraft from II. and III./TG 3. Most of the girls belonged to 5.(Helferinnen-)Kp./Ln-Abt. 81. [Note: II. and III./TG 3 were equipped with the Ju 52 and there is no evidence in the pages and pages of information that I have on both of these Gruppen that they ever had any Me 323 transports – not even one].
On 24-25 August 1944 a further 250 Ln-Helferinnen under the command of Ln-Oberführerin von Möller were evacuated from Targsorul-Nou airfield. The evening of 25 August the 2,000 remaining German personnel in Waldlager 1 and nearby Waldlager 2 were surrounded by 6,000 Romanian soldiers. A German Fallschirmjäger-Kp. under Major Weithöhner was flown in to Otopeni airfield to reinforce the German positions at Waldlager 1 and 2 and at the two airfields (Targsorul-Nou and Otopeni).
Despite the air evacuation from the greater Bucharest area of approximately 500 Ln-Helferinnen to Budapest and then on to Vienna, many Ln-Helferinnen were captured when the German defense of Waldlager 1 and 2 collapsed in 28 August. Others who could not be evacuated disappeared and are still listed as missing today. In February 1945, perhaps as many as 1,000 Ln-Helferinnen were being held in a camp in Romania called “Ghencea”. Others who were being evacuated by bus to Hungary were killed when their column was strafed by Russian (and/or Romanian) aircraft.
The author (Hoffmann) did an outstanding job piecing all of this together using documents, German Red Cross investigative files, International Red Cross investigative files, and extensive interviews with surviving participants, including the Kommandeur of Ln-Abt. 81, Obstlt. Karl Möhlenbeck, and many former Ln-Helferinnen. In this account there is no mention of any Me 323 or Ju 52 transports being shot down with Ln-Helferinnen evacuees or civilian women aboard. So, is it possible that we have another myth here?
[Source: Hoffmann, Karl Otto - Ln: Die Geschichte der Luftnachrichtentruppe. 3 Bde (Neckargemünd, 1965-73), Band II/Teil 2, pp.216-24].
FWIW - Part II:
There is also a 6-page detailed description of the evacuation of Targsorul-Nou airfield, which was ordered at 15:15 hours 26 August. A long column of 400 vehicles carrying 300 Ln-Helferinnen and 1,200 soldiers departed the airfield and on 1 September arrived in Deutsch-Budak. There were a number of strafing attacks on the column and at least 4 Ln-Helferinnen were killed. The testimony of 4 participants belonging to I./JG 53 were used to reconstruct the events. There is no mention of any Me 323s being shot down.
[Source: Prien, Jochen - Chronik des JG-53 “Pik-As”, Teil 1 (privately published, c 1989). “Pik-As”: Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 53, Teile 2 and 3 (Eutin, 1990-91), Teil 3, pp.1182-87].
Finally, there is a 7-page description of III./JG 77 at Mizil airfield between 23 and 28 August. Many participants describe Me 323s and Ju 52s evacuating personnel from the airfield, but there is no mention of Ln-Helferinnen or other women. Romanian fighters began attacking III./JG 77 on 23 August and these fighter-to-fighter encounters increased over the next few days. There is no mention of any Me 323s being shot down.
[Source: Prien, Jochen - Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 , 4 Bde (Teile 1 – 4) (Eutin, c. 1992-93), Teil 4, pp.2123-31].
There is also a 6-page detailed description of the evacuation of Targsorul-Nou airfield, which was ordered at 15:15 hours 26 August. A long column of 400 vehicles carrying 300 Ln-Helferinnen and 1,200 soldiers departed the airfield and on 1 September arrived in Deutsch-Budak. There were a number of strafing attacks on the column and at least 4 Ln-Helferinnen were killed. The testimony of 4 participants belonging to I./JG 53 were used to reconstruct the events. There is no mention of any Me 323s being shot down.
[Source: Prien, Jochen - Chronik des JG-53 “Pik-As”, Teil 1 (privately published, c 1989). “Pik-As”: Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 53, Teile 2 and 3 (Eutin, 1990-91), Teil 3, pp.1182-87].
Finally, there is a 7-page description of III./JG 77 at Mizil airfield between 23 and 28 August. Many participants describe Me 323s and Ju 52s evacuating personnel from the airfield, but there is no mention of Ln-Helferinnen or other women. Romanian fighters began attacking III./JG 77 on 23 August and these fighter-to-fighter encounters increased over the next few days. There is no mention of any Me 323s being shot down.
[Source: Prien, Jochen - Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 , 4 Bde (Teile 1 – 4) (Eutin, c. 1992-93), Teil 4, pp.2123-31].
Last edited by Larry D. on 04 Aug 2005, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Warlordimi
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- Location: Brussels, Belgium
Hello, back again! 
Here's the extract from Willy Reshcke's "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau"", in pge 145.
Date is 26 august 44
Cheers,
Dimitri
Here's the extract from Willy Reshcke's "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau"", in pge 145.
Date is 26 august 44
A little further, Reschke says that the flatbed convoys sustained heavy casualties while taking heavy fire from the same Romanians AA guns.... Romanians manned the anti-aircraft positions in the Ploesti region, from 20mm vierlingsflak to 88. We were completly surrounded by Romanians, who were well hidden in the cornfields.
....
II./JG301 (and not IV as I previously said) under Hauptmann Nölter was not prepared for this onslaught. Flatbeds trucks were hurriedly converted to transport out the female auxiliaries, with caterpillars tractors serving as prime movers. Later in the morning, two Me323 Gigant transports servong as flying workshops arrived. They were quickly stripped down and loaded with female auxiliaries.
So far there had been no fighting on the airfield proper and there were still no signs of a hectic retreat. However, this soon changed, and we were forced to watch as both giganten were shot down by Romanians AA guns as they climbed out in the direction of the Carpathians.
Cheers,
Dimitri
Last edited by Warlordimi on 04 Aug 2005, 15:31, edited 1 time in total.
Michael Holm's website
http://www.ww2.dk/
says about the loss of Me323 in August 1944:
Abgang:
I./TG 5: zero
II./TG 5: zero
but of the
16./IV./TG 4: 21 (!) Me 323.
If I had my written sources beside me I could you tell a little bit more.
MfG Michi
http://www.ww2.dk/
says about the loss of Me323 in August 1944:
Abgang:
I./TG 5: zero
II./TG 5: zero
but of the
16./IV./TG 4: 21 (!) Me 323.
If I had my written sources beside me I could you tell a little bit more.
MfG Michi