Completely Unknown Experimental Aircraft (?)

MAX_theHitMan · Post by **MAX_theHitMan** » 23 Aug 2005 15:33

A good friend of mine recently gave me a CD with some new World War II images.
He says he got most of the material from the internet from various sites.

Going through the files carefully to sort out the material, I came upon this amazing picture...
...I have since been searching through all my files and books as to what it might be.
I am still in "?????"

Can anyone identify this aircraft?
It´s maker...type...engine...etc?

Now some of you might already know that I make photoshopped faked images. I am a moderator on a site that deals with faked images. Some of you might already know my works from the past. I have been doing it for the past seven years.
So in a certain way I do have a good eye to spot a faked image from a real image.
But looking closer at this one, I cannot see the diference.

I am perplexed.
It´s either a very good fake, or it is a very rare one-of-a-kind aircraft, built for research purposes.
I really don´t know.
Please help out.
Perhaps some of you already know the answer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted pictures deleted by me.

Like JAN HEUVEL said on the other forum...
"Mind that I claim the copyright to these photo's and publication or spreading them on the internet is not allowed without my written permission. "

http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2748
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for the link in tracking those strange pictures MaddrCat. 8)

MadderCat · Post by **MadderCat** » 23 Aug 2005 16:16

check this site : http://www.airwarfareforum.com/
there is the owner of the copyright present (Jan van der Heuvel)
and there was a diskussion about this plane (WWII section)
called "mistery fighter competition" & the presentation of the pictures http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2748

MadderCat

Huck · Post by **Huck** » 23 Aug 2005 18:14

I do agree that this is a Heinkel design with components from He-280, and that the only engine that fits the images is DB-604. That they pick a small 1300HP engine is obviously incorrect, the propeller clearly shows that this is a very powerful engine, and the dimensions of the plane are larger than of a normal single engine fighter (you can see that by looking at the size of the man standing next to the plane) allowing the mount of DB-604. From all the powerful German engines only DB-604 had the exhausts aligned this way (I am considering here all important 2500+HP German engines like: DB-606/610/613, DB-609, DB-630, Jumo 222, Jumo 224, BMW 802, BMW 803, Ar 413). A captured Napier Sabre is not a good choice as it has a single exhaust row on each side despite being an H-type engine.

Brettina · Post by **Brettina** » 25 Aug 2005 20:46

The pictures have been modified, the tail of a Fock Wulf has been pasted over the Hutter tail in the side image. Hutter used a distintive tail shape on his designs but that has been sensored out in this picture. The front view there is some airbrush work on the wing edges-I think. This is a destroyer type two seat twin engine attack plane, however the photo has been done using "forced perspective" to make this maching look like a small fighter. My Luftwaffe secret plane book about Hutter is in storage, however I am sure this is a Hutter(there should be two dots over the U in Hutter-like this: Hütter) There are two engines one on top of the other, V12 type, with one motor offset foreword to allow the flywheels to gear into the prop-shaft more simply, if both engines are facing forward, then one engine must run CCW and the other CW. If one engine is facing backwards then both engines can turn the same direction. The aircrew sit side by side with the prop-shaft between them. There is a cannon mounted to fire down the prop-shaft and another cannon mounted as a "stinger" in the tail. There should be a bomb-bay or camera bay just behing the engine bay with fuel tanks on top. What a great picture-a real secret german plane.

Regards
Brettina

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 26 Aug 2005 00:40

Just a thought - on what basis can he claim copyright of the images? He didn't take the photos ("A good friend of mine recently gave me a CD with some new World War II images. He says he got most of the material from the internet from various sites."), he doesn't 'own' he photos (see prev quote), he hasn't (AFAICT) modified the photos or otherwise added value to them.

He might be able to claim some rights over the packaging (i.e., you can't distribute duplicate CDs), but I have serious doubts over whether he has copyright over the pics themselves.

Oh, wait - he can 'claim' it, of course. But that doesn't mean much, of itself.

MadderCat · Post by **MadderCat** » 26 Aug 2005 07:23

@JonS
Please read in http://www.airwarfareforum.com the following topic http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2748
Mr. Jan van der Heuvel claims the copyright, NOT the person who gave MAX_theHitMan the pictures on CD ... okay

so please be careful by what you're reading & writing

my 2 €-cents

MadderCat

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 26 Aug 2005 08:38

Yes Mad, thank you for clarifying what I already understood quite well. Replace 'him' with 'van Heuvel' in my previous post if it makes you feel better, or if you find it easier to follow. Either way the question still stands.

So, you please be careful what you read and write.

Regards
Jon

ChrisMAg2 · Post by **ChrisMAg2** » 26 Aug 2005 08:46

@JonS,
please note: as J v d H owns and posses the only known prints of this a/c, he automatically has the copyright on them. And as he is a legal adviser, you bet, he knows, what he is doing. He does have every right to claim full copyrights on the photos.

Regards
Christian M. Aguilar

MadderCat · Post by **MadderCat** » 26 Aug 2005 09:29

@JonS
read what's written in the links I posted before, that will help a lot....

MadderCat

Auseklis · Post by **Auseklis** » 26 Aug 2005 14:26

Hm,

Nowarra only shows a outline drawing of the Hü 211, maybe it is just a artists impression how they may have looked like. Or maybe Hütter decided to build the prototype in this P-39'ish style instead of placing the engines under the wings.

Brettina can you remember the title of the book you're referring to?

MadderCat · Post by **MadderCat** » 26 Aug 2005 16:33

@Auseklis
the Hütter Hü-211 was based on the He 219's hull and tail assembly
so no work in direction of a P-39 design seems to be possible

something in direction of a He-119 derivate seems more likely

MadderCat

Auseklis · Post by **Auseklis** » 26 Aug 2005 17:08

Well, since Nowarra also says that Hütter has redesigned the wing section completely and there is no known photograph of the Hü 211's two protoypes and we have a picture of an aircraft that looks like a Heinkel somehow and most probably has 2 Jumo 222 engines I would say Nowarra may have made a mistake. I would realy appreciate if another picture of the Hü 211 would show up so that they can be ruled out for shure.

The point is: We have a photo without a RLM-No. and we have a describtion of an aircraft without a photo. I would say that the plain description without the drawing fits at least for a good part the aircraft on the photo.

Something that REALY no one ever heard about (like the He-119 derivate you mused about) seems less likely to me until evidence shows up that it existed.
Consider how many strange aircraft designs we know about.

Brettina · Post by **Brettina** » 26 Aug 2005 20:25

[quote="Auseklis"]Hm,

Nowarra only shows a outline drawing of the Hü 211, maybe it is just a artists impression how they may have looked like. Or maybe Hütter decided to build the prototype in this P-39'ish style instead of placing the engines under the wings.

Brettina can you remember the title of the book you're referring to?[/quote]

Secret German Aircraft~or something like that, the book is in storage and I won't be able to get to it for about a week, however I can remember clearly seeing a wartime drawing/diagram showing a design just like the photo, the only difference is the engines, the diagram showed two motors-one in the same position as in the photo and the other in the rear tail all driving the nose prop through a long shaft down the center. I will make a sketch from memory and try and post it here when I get a chance. The plane in the photo is I'm sure a Hutter but I don't know the number. It's a real secret plane, that's for sure.

Cantankerous · Post by **Cantankerous** » 12 Jun 2022 22:05

Brettina wrote: ↑
26 Aug 2005 20:25

Auseklis wrote:Hm,

Nowarra only shows a outline drawing of the Hü 211, maybe it is just a artists impression how they may have looked like. Or maybe Hütter decided to build the prototype in this P-39'ish style instead of placing the engines under the wings.

Brettina can you remember the title of the book you're referring to?
Secret German Aircraft~or something like that, the book is in storage and I won't be able to get to it for about a week, however I can remember clearly seeing a wartime drawing/diagram showing a design just like the photo, the only difference is the engines, the diagram showed two motors-one in the same position as in the photo and the other in the rear tail all driving the nose prop through a long shaft down the center. I will make a sketch from memory and try and post it here when I get a chance. The plane in the photo is I'm sure a Hutter but I don't know the number. It's a real secret plane, that's for sure.

A company three-view drawing of the Hütter Hü 211 is found on page 161 of the book Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Ground Attack and Special-Purpose Aircraft, and photo of a model of the Hü 211 with a butterfly tail appears on page 162 of the same book. A photo of a nacelle mock-up for the Hü 211 and additional drawings of the aircraft can be found at this link:
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/h ... 211.43524/

Axis History Forum

Completely Unknown Experimental Aircraft (?)

Completely Unknown Experimental Aircraft (?)

Hutter Attack Plane

Re: Hütter Hü 211